Combat of Thirty '08 News and Recruitment

Gregoire de Lyon · Post by **Gregoire de Lyon** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:52 am

Sir Nigel, Sir Johannes -

Will you be tightening the kit requirement to a more precise date of the 14th century? I know now that we have been in the range of 1350 to 1400. That's a broad spectrum of kits.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:19 am

Steve we need to get tweakin.

You need greaves and body armour and a couple other bits.

but yeah i'd LOOOOvvvvvvveeeee to have ya.

Johannes · Post by **Johannes** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:23 pm

Because of the 1351 date of the actual 30, and the 1380 leanings of the SCA, I don't see us pulling the strings tighter date wise right now. My own inclination is to keep it 1320-1400 like it is now. I do want to stick to those dates, though, as the most distracting thing in past years for me has been the few out-of-range kits. Sir Corby looks awesome, but I kept noticing him because he was out of place. His withdrawal on those grounds was much to his credit. I'd rather fight with 20 on 20 and have everyone fit than include people who are out of time.

All of us should look to our gear and keep tightening it up, my own goal is to eventually see us pick the 30 best 14th century kits for each side, leaving one or two decent kits watching (even if it is me).

Ransoms that allowed us to re-enter the field was introduced for the third COTT, in an attempt to make the fight last longer, and it did very much accomplish that. The unintended consequence was that the ransom portion became a more prominent feature of the COTT, and it civilized it a little. We have seen the ladies start to come and participate, and the pageant is creeping in.

The original intention of this was to emulate a combat that was essentially 60 guys in a field having at it without the finery a tournament brings. Its essence was deadly combat between men of the chivalric culture but without courtly finery.

In the SCA we largely enact a courtly culture, so it is very hard to do things that have a medieval flair without adding into it our own 19th century Romantic elements. While I enjoy those elemets, I also cherish the experience of getting closer to the medieval.

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:57 pm

Ransoms that allowed us to re-enter the field was introduced for the third COTT, in an attempt to make the fight last longer, and it did very much accomplish that. The unintended consequence was that the ransom portion became a more prominent feature of the COTT, and it civilized it a little. We have seen the ladies start to come and participate, and the pageant is creeping in.

The more I think about the best solution to having the fight last longer is to get rid of the stunning rule all together and have folks fight till they yield form exhaustion or get "killed".

I know form speaking to Rhys that original stunning convention was conceived to model the effects of multiple proux blows upon a combatant in historic armour ( ewith a pot holder for helmet padding) but for whatever reason it seems to me that it fails and makes the stunning too easily achieved. The original 30 after all, lasted long enought that the took a break to catch their wind.

Gregoire de Lyon · Post by **Gregoire de Lyon** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:17 pm

What are the consequeces of going to submission vis-a-vis playing at an SCA event?

At least here in the Middle Kingdom fighting to submission is explicitly a no-no...

Johannes · Post by **Johannes** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:47 pm

I like the idea of a person yielding when he has had enough, or knows it is the right time and situation for it, but worry that it may be straying too far from the SCA norm. This combat is already perceived as a "brutal slugfest", although those of us who fight it do not understand where that might come from. I suspect it is the repetitive strikes that make it seem brutal, and the ganging up that makes it possible to capture a man a stature.

I have no problem yielding to an opponent when things are very much to my detriment, but I would think a submission system might lead to some excesses that could harm the 30 permanently.

If we fought it with more strategy and as if life was at stake it would last longer, but that is hard to simulate.

We could up the blow count, but i can't honestly count past three in a combat situation...

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:51 pm

To be clear, I am not suggesting that the fights be to submission just the victory conditions be limited to thrusts to the eye-slot to a bargrill, thrusts to the arm pit, thrusts to the back of the leg/buttocks/groin, (and maybe thrusts to the throat) i.e those areas only protected by mail in a cap a pie transitional harness. Reduced targeting in other words. the original 30 rules were essentially these plus one should consider oneself briefly stunned if struck in hr head 3 times in rapid succession.

As always, anyone may yield as they see fit for reasons of exhaustion or whatever.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:08 pm

"We could up the blow count, but i can't honestly count past three in a combat situation... "

We could do 5

almost every time for me it has been a few single blows.

Or so many i couldn't count as i got beat down. The number is almost academic.

Johannes · Post by **Johannes** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:37 pm

Murdock wrote:Or so many i couldn't count as i got beat down. The number is almost academic.

This is the point at which yielding is a good call. :lol:

I have only been captured by running out of weapons, every other time I have been killed by stabbing.

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:35 pm

As a non-14th cent mafia type I would like to see the original ransom rules re-incorporated. I know of a few people who are strong of valor, fierce at arms and possessing of a mighty fine kit who elected NOT to fight in the Cot30 because they did not have time to prepare an appropriate ransom.

Sean

Thorstenn · Post by **Thorstenn** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:46 pm

I took part in the Deed at Gulf Wars (what a blast) I captured 3 or 4 stout nobles I only asked them on there honor to make good on there Ransom after the battle ( so they could get back with there brothers in arms quicker ) I care not what they give, any small token is fine by me.
I dont care if it coast a penny to make that's not the point for me. Its something gained by honorable combat, me, and them. What I made took more time than money. I hope they enjoyed it, my wife taught me how to make it so it was a shared project. A Banana brandy cordial (sp) It was fun. I ask that you all not get to rapped up in amounts but in the spirit of the giving. Spices back then were expensive, not so much today. What about sugar, or chocolate, or well....you get the point. Have fun dont break the bank.

Thorstenn,

Sean Powell wrote:As a non-14th cent mafia type I would like to see the original ransom rules re-incorporated. I know of a few people who are strong of valor, fierce at arms and possessing of a mighty fine kit who elected NOT to fight in the Cot30 because they did not have time to prepare an appropriate ransom.

Sean

St. George · Post by **St. George** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:23 pm

Unto this most gracious company, does George, Duke Sartiano, known in many circles as Alaric, send his warmest greetings.

For many of you, it has been far too long since we have shared company, crossed swords, or held ground against common foe. For others, we have not yet received the opportunity to share these honors. The Combat of the Thirty shall be our opportunity to do all of these things!

For my part, I will stand with those warriors of England, Johannes and Murdock, my brothers in arms and most excellent companions. I shall bear arms and armor appropriate of my station, fight to my fullest ability, and offer fruit of the vines of my Duchy in ransom payment, should someone be so bold, valiant, or skillful as to strike me down and take me prisoner that day. To all who would take the field, best of luck. To those who spectate, I only hope that the sights you see bring you the same joy that we receive participating in this valiant deed upon the field.

Until the gauntlet is dropped on our chosen day, God's Peace and safety be unto you all, and then may He watch over us all as we strive to become worthies upon the field!

George, Duke Sartiano

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:01 am

My thanks your Grace, well met.

"I know of a few people who are strong of valor, fierce at arms and possessing of a mighty fine kit who elected NOT to fight in the Cot30 because they did not have time to prepare an appropriate ransom. "

Well i spotted people ransoms last year just to get us closer to 30.

I think i had to pay for 2??? guys. Might have been James and i forgot who else.

But if people wanna play i've tried to get em out there, fitting the theme of course, but get em there.

Gregoire de Lyon · Post by **Gregoire de Lyon** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:40 am

Sean Powell wrote:I know of a few people who are strong of valor, fierce at arms and possessing of a mighty fine kit who elected NOT to fight in the Cot30 because they did not have time to prepare an appropriate ransom.

If they fight for the French they don't need to bring ransoms! :twisted:

Johannes · Post by **Johannes** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:42 am

Gregoire de Lyon wrote:If they fight for the French they don't need to bring ransoms!

Because they'll be dead?

:lol:

Chris Gilman · Post by **Chris Gilman** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:12 am

Well I think this year, I will try a period approch to my ransom. It will be what ever the household (Duchy Tarragon) will give for me. Whoever captures me will have to send word to my keep (camp) and demand payment. That means you have to have someone guard me for the rest of the battle while awaiting word of my value.
The other period way would be; you kill me and take my amour and throw my body to....... :idea:

...

...Never mind! Just send word to my camp.

Or, it is... Pennsic....it will be Hot....humid....sweaty.....you will be thirsty.....I could have someone standing by with a cooler of cold beer. :lol:

Syrfinn · Post by **Syrfinn** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:16 am

OOh, I could see Dukes Michael and Brion having fun with that, or heaven forbid Duchesses Anna or Seaonid be the ones who recieves the message.

Friedrich Parcifal · Post by **Friedrich Parcifal** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:33 am

Sir Gaston wrote:Well I think this year, I will try a period approch to my ransom. It will be what ever the household (Duchy Tarragon) will give for me. Whoever captures me will have to send word to my keep (camp) and demand payment. That means you have to have someone guard me for the rest of the battle while awaiting word of my value.
The other period way would be; you kill me and take my amour and throw my body to....... ... ...Never mind! Just send word to my camp.

Or, it is... Pennsic....it will be Hot....humid....sweaty.....you will be thirsty.....I could have someone standing by with a cooler of cold beer.

Sir, this is a most excellent idea!

Johannes · Post by **Johannes** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:01 am

Sir Gaston wrote:Well I think this year, I will try a period approch to my ransom. It will be what ever the household (Duchy Tarragon) will give for me. Whoever captures me will have to send word to my keep (camp) and demand payment. That means you have to have someone guard me for the rest of the battle while awaiting word of my value.
The other period way would be; you kill me and take my amour and throw my body to....... ... ...Never mind! Just send word to my camp.

To be even more period, since you are not royalty, they could chain you up somewhere and mostly forget about you, except to make sure you live through it. Then if your dire predicament doesn't motivate your camp to pay up, they could really forget about you... :twisted:

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:41 am

At least here in the Middle Kingdom fighting to submission is explicitly a no-no...

I offer my sincere apologies for my part in getting this type of combat banned in the Middle Kingdom. :wink:

Johannes · Post by **Johannes** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:52 am

I am not sure that yielding after recognizing a situation is fubar and "submission" fighting are actually the same thing.

I tend to know when I have been bested and have no hope of getting out in a single piece without having to have my head held between my knees by two guys while someone else goes for an arm bar.

Yielding in an untenable situation is different than yielding to avoid pain.

Chris Gilman · Post by **Chris Gilman** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:50 pm

Eadric of Stonemarche wrote:
Sir Gaston wrote:Well I think this year, I will try a period approch to my ransom. It will be what ever the household (Duchy Tarragon) will give for me. Whoever captures me will have to send word to my keep (camp) and demand payment. That means you have to have someone guard me for the rest of the battle while awaiting word of my value.
The other period way would be; you kill me and take my amour and throw my body to....... ... ...Never mind! Just send word to my camp.

Or, it is... Pennsic....it will be Hot....humid....sweaty.....you will be thirsty.....I could have someone standing by with a cooler of cold beer.

Sir, this is a most excellent idea!

The cooler of beer?

Chris Gilman · Post by **Chris Gilman** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:51 pm

Johannes wrote:I am not sure that yielding after recognizing a situation is fubar and "submission" fighting are actually the same thing.

I tend to know when I have been bested and have no hope of getting out in a single piece without having to have my head held between my knees by two guys while someone else goes for an arm bar.

Yielding in an untenable situation is different than yielding to avoid pain.

Why does this happen to you all the time? :lol:

Saritor · Post by **Saritor** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:57 pm

Sir Gaston wrote:
Eadric of Stonemarche wrote:Sir, this is a most excellent idea!

The cooler of beer?

We can only hope so. Then again, you've got some nice armor...

Johannes · Post by **Johannes** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:59 pm

Sir Gaston wrote:Why does this happen to you all the time?

ALL the time. Marriage is a submission fight...

Friedrich Parcifal · Post by **Friedrich Parcifal** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:01 pm

Sir Gaston wrote:
Eadric of Stonemarche wrote:
Sir, this is a most excellent idea!

The cooler of beer?

Firstly, seeing what those whom you serve would pay to have you back, and secondly, that the question would be posed to their Graces of Tarragon. I have been around them enough to know they have quite a sense of humor and can only imagine what the response might be.

Bleddyn De Caldicot · Post by **Bleddyn De Caldicot** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:28 pm

Has the Combat of the Thirty been done on a specific day of Pennsic? or do you guys have the day planned out? (just so I can know)

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:58 pm

It has traditionally been held after opening ceremonies.

Bleddyn De Caldicot · Post by **Bleddyn De Caldicot** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:22 pm

Cet wrote:It has traditionally been held after opening ceremonies.

I began in the SCA right after last years pennsic so I have little knowledge of how it works...but I'm guessing thats on the first day?

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:59 pm

Actually it is the second Sunday- Aug 3rd this year,

Ieuan Gower · Post by **Ieuan Gower** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:05 pm

We could always do a work around for the SCA rules... say perhaps 30 counted blows :roll:

Of course few of us will be able to count or withstand that many so we would instead just choose when we've had enough to consider ourselves bested.

Ieuan

DarkApprentice · Post by **DarkApprentice** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:10 pm

Or everything could just be light or have insufficient force until something that had sufficient force hit you

DA

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:06 pm

For God and St. George!

My lady, Gabriella Hamilton esquire to the honoured Sir Vitus wishes to honor her English roots. If her kit is deemed acceptable, she would like to take the field.
I would like to fight beside the Lord Murdoch this time if you would be willing to have a broken old knight as I.
If you would have us, we are yours.
Are arms are thus-

This is her in last years COTT-

She is skilled in all aspects of chivalric worth-

My thanks for hearing our plea to join you.

Palymar · Post by **Palymar** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:46 pm

Gregoire de Lyon wrote:What are the consequeces of going to submission vis-a-vis playing at an SCA event?

At least here in the Middle Kingdom fighting to submission is explicitly a no-no...

I believe that if you check with the Society Marshal, you will find that submission fighting (of the type being discussed) is not permitted SCA wide. That was my impression given me when I was EM and approached the then Society Marshal.

Suggestions for having a limit of 30 or just calling all shots light until you are ready to give up are not in the best interests of this Tournement.

Personally, I liked the 3 blows to the head = stunned convention. It was easy to keep track and if you broke off combat, you reset the count. It keeps the senario playable and doesn't lead to thoughts of leg sweeping an opponent to force a yield :wink:

Johannes · Post by **Johannes** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:21 pm

Leo, your lady and yourself are welcome indeed. I will try not to return the friendly fire favour :lol:

Combat of Thirty '08 News and Recruitment

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