Heraldic Tabards & Belts?

William of Otterton · Post by **William of Otterton** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:15 pm

So...

A comment came up the last SCA event when I was working as the Baronial Herald at. Due to the fairly high winds that started to plague the site, I wrapped my belt around the outside of my Baronial Herald tabard simply because I didn't want it whipping around all over place. It was pointed out to me, by another Herald that this technically should not be done as it implies I am preparing for conflict by dressing it that way.

Part of the Ealdormere College of Herald rules does state that "Belting the tabard" makes it into a garment of war and thus not suitable as one that is technically meant to avoid open conflict. Is there any historical fact in this that anyone is aware of? I'm genuinely curious now about this and have no idea where to start looking for historical precedence or is that a genuine SCA'ism?

Thanks,
Griffin

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:35 pm

First I've heard of it. I'm suspicious of remarks on heraldic usage that come out of the blue like this. I've heard a lot of stuff exclaimed by people who clearly believed their words, but on investigation, well, it wasn't the case.

I'd ask the Kingdom Herald, other Kingdom Heralds, and also anyone they respect as heraldic scholars.

AriAnson · Post by **AriAnson** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:48 am

I've never seen an image of a herald wearing a belt over a tabard, but I've also never heard of it being some sort of overt threat. I just spent 20 minutes looking through my heraldry books and none of them have any mention of some form of taboo against belted tabards. Some of the books go into lengthy discussions on the topic.

Donal Mac Ruiseart · Post by **Donal Mac Ruiseart** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:35 am

Historical images of heralds that I've seen always show the tabard unbelted, while images of knights wearing surcotes and tabards often show them belted.

I have never seen anything in writing stating that there is a specific custom that putting a belt outside a tabard or surcote is a sign of warlike intent, however.

I suggest you track down the person or people who told you that and ask them where they got the information. And the presence of the law in your kingdom's directives means that it should be followed. If you think it wrong, challenge it but do so with facts.

I recall an image of a herald wearing a tabard that was blowing in the wind. Hate to say it, but putting up with a windblown tabard may just be one of the costs of doing it right.

And as to that matter of doing it right - good on you for actually wearing a tabard! Wish I could get more of our heralds in Atlantia to wear 'em.

Fire Stryker · Post by **Fire Stryker** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:10 am

In the mounted melee, sometimes the combatants wore tabards cut in the fashion of the heralds. The comment might be rooted in that.

Gwydion Caithnes · Post by **Gwydion Caithnes** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:51 pm

Well, I've never heard of a "belted tabard" either. My guess is that the speaker is confusing a heraldic tabard (worn by a non-combatant herald) with a heraldic surcoat (worn by the owner of the arms to identify himself on the field). Surcoats were often belted, especially in the 14th Cent. - plaque belts being among the more common depicted belts used.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:05 pm

I think I remember a memorial brass, late-fifteenth/early-sixteenth date, English, of a knight, armored neck to foot, head uncovered, and wearing a heraldic display garment of tabard cut. This knight's tabard was not IIRC belted in, but flying as free as the stiff looking fabric in the picture could.

Here's one: William Catesby, 1485. http://www.mbs-brasses.co.uk/pic_lib/Ashby_St_Legers_Brass.htm

Not a herald, and nary a belting-in.

Gwydion Caithnes · Post by **Gwydion Caithnes** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:08 pm

Konstantin the Red wrote:I think I remember a memorial brass, late-fifteenth/early-sixteenth date, English, of a knight, armored neck to foot, head uncovered, and wearing a heraldic display garment of tabard cut. This knight's tabard was not IIRC belted in, but flying as free as the stiff looking fabric in the picture could.

Indeed...I have a rubbing of such a brass. Surcoats were not always belted, particularly later.

Karen Larsdatter · Post by **Karen Larsdatter** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:07 pm

Can't be entirely sure, but it looks to me like the herald in this tournament has a belt on over his tabard.

More herald pics at http://larsdatter.com/heralds.htm -- but most of those seem to show belts under the tabards.

Gwydion Caithnes · Post by **Gwydion Caithnes** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:11 pm

Karen Larsdatter wrote:Can't be entirely sure, but it looks to me like the herald in this tournament has a belt on over his tabard.

More herald pics at http://larsdatter.com/heralds.htm -- but most of those seem to show belts under the tabards.

Hard to tell. That could just be a field division in the heraldry.

Heraldic Tabards & Belts?

Heraldic Tabards & Belts?

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