So...what exactly does Feibings do to elk leather?

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:51 am

I dyed a test piece of elk last night with some Feibings dye, and it seems like it's going to work ok. While the dye was still sort of wet, the leather did get a little....weird (can't really explain), but this morning it seems ok.

What will this dye do to the leather over time? I figured it must not be good for the elk to use this kind of dye since all I've ever heard is that you can't dye it, but it seems to be working.

Any advice or warnings?

Thanks,
Cat

Johann Lederer · Post by **Johann Lederer** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:48 am

Which dye are you using? Oil, spirit or eco flo?

I have had mixed results on different leather, I had to dye real buff one time with spirit USMC black, good thing I tested it first, it went green. I ended up doing it the period way with lamp black and tallow, messy, but it looked right.

I have also noticed on thinner leather absorption is sometimes faster or deeper. I have had mixed results on deer hide with all but the eco flo.

I am resisting buying any eco flo until I have to...

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:51 am

I'm betting you've got chrome tanned elk. The "wierdness" was probably just the leather being wet.

The convention is that you can't dye chrome tanned, but it's not exactly true. I wouldn't worry about the dye being bad for the leather - it's going to be subjected to much worse kinds of treatment during its life

The thing I would check carefully for is "crocking" - where the dye comes off the leather and onto your clothes - and while it wasn't as permanent on the leather as one might wish, you can bet it won't wash out of whatever clothing it colors :sad:

I recommend the "buff test" - after the dye has thoroughly dryed, take a clean buffing cloth to the leather and rub, rub, rub, then check for color on the cloth.

Donal Mac Ruiseart · Post by **Donal Mac Ruiseart** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:34 am

When I dye leather that's going to get hard use (such as my body armour), I use a sealant on it. Don't recall the exact name of the product but it's a milky white liquid.

In fact, I've treated the INSIDE of my body armour with the stuff so it will absorb less perspiration than otherwise. One who perspires as much as I do will appreciate that!

I've concluded that I shouldn't wear an aketon or the like as primary body armour because it will probably increase in weight and diminish in protection as the day goes on.

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:45 am

Thanks for the responses guys. I am using the spirit dyes (HATE eco flo). I would probably guess that the elk is chrome tanned.

Speaking of that, if chrome tanning is a modern process, what's the medieval equivalent?

The rub tests looks good. I did that last night and this morning, and it doesn't seem any different than veg tan. I got it wet today, and then rubbed, and very little came off.

Donal, I'm not sure, but you're probably talking about Leather Balm with Atom wax. Great stuff for veg tan, and workes really well on the insidefor stuff you want to harden or keep firm. I've never tried any finishing products on the elk. Not sure how well that would work. (I'm thinking it might not work well at all, but I've got scraps I can test them on.)

So basically, there's really no ill effects with the spirit based dyes?

Thanks,
Cat

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:03 am

Cat wrote:Speaking of that, if chrome tanning is a modern process, what's the medieval equivalent?

Alum-tawed is the medieval equivalent. In fact, mechanically, the two tans are nearly identical (a fact I found out after a great deal of expense, so if you're able to hide the blue edges and aren't worried about absorbing chrome salts, chrome-tanned leather is a perfectly good "fudge.").

Alum stuff is going to slowly make a comeback here and there, as EU regs no longer allow chrome-tan for car upholstery due to the sweat toxicity problem.

I have myself never, ever, dyed leather. If you know of a good url demonstrating what the period-appropriate colors, etcetera, are, it would save me quite a bit of fumbling around...

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:13 am

Russ, thanks for the info! Actually, the deer and elk I have do not have the blue edges. They are the same color as the flesh side, even when cut. Maybe this isn't chrome tanned?

As for period appropriate colors...I'm afraid I don't know. I haven't gotten that far yet. Eventually, once I get construction techniques down right, I think I will head that direction and see if I can't make my own period dyes. I also want to try to use period materials, but still need to research that. I've seen goatskin mentioned alot...will have to try that.

I'm sorry I can't help you on that, but will let you know if I happen to come across anything.

Cat

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:44 am

That is unusual. They may have been a glutaraldehyde tan, which is a chemical equivalent to smoke-tanning ("brain" tanning is a misnomer. The brains form a fat-liquor that aids in opening the fibers, but it is the smoke that actually makes the chemical changes in the hide).

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:12 pm

Cat wrote:Russ, thanks for the info! Actually, the deer and elk I have do not have the blue edges. They are the same color as the flesh side, even when cut. Maybe this isn't chrome tanned?

As for period appropriate colors...I'm afraid I don't know. I haven't gotten that far yet. Eventually, once I get construction techniques down right, I think I will head that direction and see if I can't make my own period dyes. I also want to try to use period materials, but still need to research that. I've seen goatskin mentioned alot...will have to try that.

I'm sorry I can't help you on that, but will let you know if I happen to come across anything.

Cat

Are the flesh and grain sides different colors ? I can't tell from your description if you've just got a vat dyed leather where the dye penetrated completely through, and so hides the typical chrome tanned coloring, or if something else is going on

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:14 pm

Russ Mitchell wrote:
Cat wrote:Speaking of that, if chrome tanning is a modern process, what's the medieval equivalent?

Alum-tawed is the medieval equivalent. In fact, mechanically, the two tans are nearly identical (a fact I found out after a great deal of expense, so if you're able to hide the blue edges and aren't worried about absorbing chrome salts, chrome-tanned leather is a perfectly good "fudge.").

Alum stuff is going to slowly make a comeback here and there, as EU regs no longer allow chrome-tan for car upholstery due to the sweat toxicity problem.

I have myself never, ever, dyed leather. If you know of a good url demonstrating what the period-appropriate colors, etcetera, are, it would save me quite a bit of fumbling around...

"Sweat toxicity problem" ? I would expect that to have a pretty hard impact on the shoe industry, if it's enough of an issue to make them address it for car upholstery.....

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:15 pm

The elk I have is a bit darker on the inside, while the deer is a bit lighter. It's probably chrome tanned, but I will ask them the next time I talk to them.

Also, is "brain tan style" (not actual brain tan, from what I gather) a good substitue for a medieval leather? They have some, but it might only be in deerskin. And what about goat? Is it as durable as elk, or maybe somewhere in between elk and deer? I would like to try that, but most of the pieces I have seen have been in the 2 to 2.5 ounce range. Will that rip apart?

Thanks guys!
Cat

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:39 pm

For what purpose?

Seriously, if you're not sure, or don't have enough funds, just go with a good chrome-tan. If it tears, it's cheap enough that you're out very little in the experimentation stage.

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:00 pm

Well, I had thought about using goat since I've seen some mention of it being used in period. In a perfect world, I would have period leather and be using period dyes. I figured getting some goatskin might get me that much closer.

Cat

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:13 pm

Cat wrote:Well, I had thought about using goat since I've seen some mention of it being used in period. In a perfect world, I would have period leather and be using period dyes. I figured getting some goatskin might get me that much closer.

Cat

While there is certainly evidence that goat was used, there's also evidence for cow and I believe sheep. I wouldn't worry too much about getting the right animal - not likely that any leather you're getting is coming from a period breed if it's a domesticated critter

and North American Whitetail isn't a European species either.

I do know that sumac tanned goat is supposed to be the top of the line in archival leathers for bookbinding purposes. Just a datapoint.

I haven't worked with goat yet, but am under the impression that it is quite strong for its thickness - much stronger than deer. I would think that makes it a good choice for pouchlets, at the very least

Thomas Powers · Post by **Thomas Powers** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:24 am

I thought one of the hallmarks for chrome tanned leather was it's resistence to water damage whereas alum tawing is very water sensitive in my experience---of course I was tawing skins for furrs.

Thomas

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:04 pm

Yep, assuming you haven't actually conditioned the leather, or, as the folks I study did, hot-stuffed it with suet...

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:20 pm

Russ Mitchell wrote:Yep, assuming you haven't actually conditioned the leather, or, as the folks I study did, hot-stuffed it with suet...

So.. what's the end result like with your alum tawed leahter, Russ ?

I'm thinking it sounds like making latigo, with all the stuffing...

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:54 pm

Actually, it makes a leather much like a latigo, though the stuffing makes a difference. The question is the degree to which one decides they want to work the fibres open. I've got leather that moves like it's heavyweight wool... and stuff I could use to make shields. It's all a matter of time and sweat-equity, and for your average dude, chrome-tanning automagically gets you where the alumtawed stuff wants to go, so far as light leathers are concerned. But then again, I've hot-stuffed the chrome stuff, too, when it wasn't raggy enough for my tastes... it's all about what you want it to be like, I guess.