Does anyone know of (English?) references for Baron John Heder, who fought against Charles of Anjou for control of Hungary? My Google searches never turn up anything except Pal Engle's book The realm of St. Stephen (which I already have), a bunch of links referring to some sort of Jewish school, and some actor. My search through the bibliographies of books I have didn't turn up anything that was obvious to me, either.
I'm also looking for books that talk about the ecclesiastical situation in the city of Pecs during the same time period (early 14th century).
Hungarian Baron John Heder (now a softkit discussion)
Moderator: Glen K
Hungarian Baron John Heder (now a softkit discussion)
Last edited by bairdec on Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sometimes you have fun, and sometimes the fun has you. -Sgt. Schlock
-
Russ Mitchell
- Archive Member
- Posts: 11800
- Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: HQ, Garden Gnome Liberation Front
- Contact:
Posit the existence of a Hungary NOT screwed by the Communists and then fiscally unable to keep scholarly books in print, let alone get them translated. (Seriously, there are *important* scholarly books IN HUNGARIAN only 20 years old that I can't get, b/c they were only printed in short run, and are long gone now). That's the problem... there are vast, vast, amounts of scholarship that could be brought to the English-speaking world, if there were money for translators, and to hunt down the actual copies of some of these works from private collections, or get access from one of the big institutions.
(Got a grant-writing expert? I know people who could do the work and put twenty or thirty books on your shelf in English: I just can't afford to pay them.)
If you can get access to a Hungarian speaker, you'll want Gyula Kristo's "War in the Age of the Angevins." (Anjou-kor haborui)
(Got a grant-writing expert? I know people who could do the work and put twenty or thirty books on your shelf in English: I just can't afford to pay them.)
If you can get access to a Hungarian speaker, you'll want Gyula Kristo's "War in the Age of the Angevins." (Anjou-kor haborui)
I was afraid that would be the answer. I don't know any grant-writing experts, maybe someday I'll win the lottery or something....
While I'm on the subject of references, is there a good book on soft kits for early 14th century Hungary? I'm under the impression that they were wearing the "international" style tunics and such. I'm hoping the clothing shown in the Illuminated Chronicle is close to what was worn, although it's about 40-50 years after the time period I'm aiming for. About the Karacsonyfalva Wall-Painting you have on Picasa- what time frame is that from?
I don't know how the caftans were used, and I don't think szurs were in use yet. I thought I saw you mention on a thread that you were using the caftan as a sort of arming coat, worn outside of the mail.
The kit you have here, is it intended to be a Cuman outfit?
And I'm still thinking about how to do the shield- only about three more months before I go on mid-tour leave and I can play around a bit.
Aaaand one last question for tonight- I can never bring up the scholarsvoices.com website listed in your profile. Is that still up?
While I'm on the subject of references, is there a good book on soft kits for early 14th century Hungary? I'm under the impression that they were wearing the "international" style tunics and such. I'm hoping the clothing shown in the Illuminated Chronicle is close to what was worn, although it's about 40-50 years after the time period I'm aiming for. About the Karacsonyfalva Wall-Painting you have on Picasa- what time frame is that from?
I don't know how the caftans were used, and I don't think szurs were in use yet. I thought I saw you mention on a thread that you were using the caftan as a sort of arming coat, worn outside of the mail.
The kit you have here, is it intended to be a Cuman outfit?
And I'm still thinking about how to do the shield- only about three more months before I go on mid-tour leave and I can play around a bit.
Aaaand one last question for tonight- I can never bring up the scholarsvoices.com website listed in your profile. Is that still up?
Sometimes you have fun, and sometimes the fun has you. -Sgt. Schlock
-
Russ Mitchell
- Archive Member
- Posts: 11800
- Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: HQ, Garden Gnome Liberation Front
- Contact:
LONG reply.
LONG reply: trying to answer you as thoroughly as I can.
See previous post. Some costume and clothing work has definitely been done... but I can't cite you one off the top of my head. I'll bug my wife, b/c she'd have it in her dissertation.
You can get quite close with the Illuminated Chronicle. Short answer: it depends on what military role the person in question is performing. The Kossegi "barons" (aka, the Heder clan) were essentially performing a function similar to a border baron, and made lots of not-friends... but they had just as many gentry serving as lighter cavalry as they did serving as heavy. (In fact, though I have to look it up, somewhere around here I have a chronicle reference not far off your time period, for some Imperials getting their asses stomped b/c they wouldn't listen to the Austrians when they said "don't underestimate these guys just b/c they're not in heavy harness.") So... for heavy cavalry/"knightly," you can see absolutely typical "western gear," what the Austrians and Hungarians would call the "equipped to fight in the Swabian manner" (mail, cuirie/armored surcoat, great helm, add some leather or composite-matieral limb defenses as you want them) for the very early 14c. For clothing, soldiers in Central Europe show a distinct preference for boots, rather than low shoes. We have some suppositions that trousers were as common as hose were, but this gets dicey, b/c the dolman and caftan come so low that it's hard to tell which is which. One thing we DO know, from some artwork I can cite later, is that in at least one case the hose seem to point to the front, rather than the side, of the braies, and it's been suggested a couple times that individuals may have brought the hose up INSIDE the braies, rather than to the outside -- it doesn't let you roll them down as is popular to the west, but it gives a more trouserlike feel.
Also, remember from your Engel, that Hungary does "multiculturalism" before it got fashionable, and many Hungarians are ethnically German (Saxon, Swabian, etc) or Slavic, living in communities of same, and wearing their traditional clothing. And if you're close to one of the courts, a.k.a., a person who could care about fashion, simply having the international style might be valuable on its own terms. So Hungary is "international" all by itself, and that's before we get anywhere near Croatia, Dalmatia, etcetera. Now, I'm dressed for fairly hot weather here, so I didn't bring a wool hood or a heavier caftan, etcetera. But, essentially, if you can find a given clothing in the HRE (including Adriatic Italy), Poland, the northern and western balkans, and even, here and there, across the Carpathians into Ruthenia, etc., chances are there's somebody in the Kingdom of Hungary wearing it.
Oh again. Also, 14c Hungary had had an excellent economy (strong enough to let Louis plant a large expeditionary army into Naples, with no land border and beyond the territory of enemy Venice. We're talking huge costs here -- imagine if Edward III had been able to pursue his war without having to spend 3/4 of his time worrying about whether the wool trade would actually finance it!) and no sumptuary codes that we know of. While we're not sure about peasants entirely, we know that the non-noble classes dressed well and in styles not too dissimilar from their social betters (although usually less elaborated and less up-to-date for a number of obvious reasons).
Dead on for what you want -- early 14c. Note that if you're playing SCA you'll have to find a way to hide your elbows, or use the ahistorical bazuband pattern with the extra protection.
Earlier caftans tended to run down the center. What we have left of images running from Cumans all the way into the steppe shows a center seam for heavy leather caftans and such garments. For regular clothing, the diagonal wrap, as pictured in the kit, is the norm.
"Szur" means "fur" in Hungarian. I'm not sure what you mean, precisely. Probably I'm having a brain fart and forgetting some 16th-century stuff (or, at least stuff that's documented from then). We don't have documentation for sheepskin caftans in art yet except being worn by Wallachians... but it's very likely to have been the case much earlier, though such would definitely be quite a ways down the social ladder towards common soldiers and peasants (we're hamstrung by our loss of sources due to the Ottoman occupation, sadly... also note that archaeology suggests that peasants in Hungary were well-armed compared to their W. Euro contemporaries). I have no evidence to suggest that an "arming caftan" would have included points for heavy harness... though it seems a fairly obvious conjecture begging to get slapped down. I have, however, established two separate distinct uses of leather caftans worn... one, a light-weight, overlapping garment worn over mail, and another, a very thick garment apparently worn all by itself made of soft leather... likely anywhere from a half to 3/4 of an inch thick. No non-Cuman pictorial sources that I've hunted down, sadly, but the earlier examples all had a distince center seam, and ran down to around knee length. The length, at least, is supported via M. Villani.
Hungarian. The helm is a fairly typical light-cavalry trick (would go under the hat). This persona is a Szekely in the service of Istvan Lackfi not long after the battle of Melito, so he's got gear with much more steppe influence. He could easily be wearing clothing very similar to what the other folks at CiT were, with very minor features. The boots would be closer to a turnshoe pattern even if they had a higher upper.
I am distinctly in the camp that thinks that reconstructions should have significant temporal conservatism to them unless the persona is somebody who would have been spot on the cutting edge of fashion, or in the retinue of somebody whose position would mandate giving gifts of clothing to said retinue for special social occasions such as marriages, births, etcetera. After all, even today you can walk around seeing 20-25 years of style playing out, and we're much more inclined to pitch stuff out, in an era where goods are cheap and labor scarce, than people would be under precisely the opposite economic conditions, particularly given the habit of giving away older clothes/gear as a form of largesse.
Also, something you should know, is that over the last decade or so, the idea that Hungarians overwhelmingly adopt heavy-cavalry gear, while leaving light-cav roles to the auxiliary nations, like a Carpathian version of the Roman Empire stereotypes, has been completely and thoroughly debunked. Instead, we're seeing that some serve as heavy, some light, and that service as light cavalry seems to be often preferred to service as heavy for reasons of mobility.
Note also that the Heder clan had a LOT of Cumans working for them/settled with them.
It's on my project list as well. The common documented shield wood is aspen, and they're relatively thick (some surviving hussar shields, not far at all from patterns shown in the Illuminated Chronicle, are an inch thick). Check the wallpainting -- those are some THICK shields. That's possibly counter-intuitive, but my experience in la canne, (they also pay attention to power generation... I've shattered-not-broken hardwood canes on heavy bags) was that a lightweight but overthick dowel was actually longer-lasting than a thinner, harder wood, so it seems to work. I intend to make an oval to start with, as it'll be easier than the compound forms -- I'm terrible at woodwork AND I've never made any shields before except small bucklers, usually in rawhide. When you get to that stage, pls. coordinate with me if you can.
It was a nice idea, and then Google scholar came out and made it worthless. So the business model is dead.
bairdec wrote:While I'm on the subject of references, is there a good book on soft kits for early 14th century Hungary?
See previous post. Some costume and clothing work has definitely been done... but I can't cite you one off the top of my head. I'll bug my wife, b/c she'd have it in her dissertation.
bairdec wrote:I'm under the impression that they were wearing the "international" style tunics and such. I'm hoping the clothing shown in the Illuminated Chronicle is close to what was worn, although it's about 40-50 years after the time period I'm aiming for.
You can get quite close with the Illuminated Chronicle. Short answer: it depends on what military role the person in question is performing. The Kossegi "barons" (aka, the Heder clan) were essentially performing a function similar to a border baron, and made lots of not-friends... but they had just as many gentry serving as lighter cavalry as they did serving as heavy. (In fact, though I have to look it up, somewhere around here I have a chronicle reference not far off your time period, for some Imperials getting their asses stomped b/c they wouldn't listen to the Austrians when they said "don't underestimate these guys just b/c they're not in heavy harness.") So... for heavy cavalry/"knightly," you can see absolutely typical "western gear," what the Austrians and Hungarians would call the "equipped to fight in the Swabian manner" (mail, cuirie/armored surcoat, great helm, add some leather or composite-matieral limb defenses as you want them) for the very early 14c. For clothing, soldiers in Central Europe show a distinct preference for boots, rather than low shoes. We have some suppositions that trousers were as common as hose were, but this gets dicey, b/c the dolman and caftan come so low that it's hard to tell which is which. One thing we DO know, from some artwork I can cite later, is that in at least one case the hose seem to point to the front, rather than the side, of the braies, and it's been suggested a couple times that individuals may have brought the hose up INSIDE the braies, rather than to the outside -- it doesn't let you roll them down as is popular to the west, but it gives a more trouserlike feel.
Also, remember from your Engel, that Hungary does "multiculturalism" before it got fashionable, and many Hungarians are ethnically German (Saxon, Swabian, etc) or Slavic, living in communities of same, and wearing their traditional clothing. And if you're close to one of the courts, a.k.a., a person who could care about fashion, simply having the international style might be valuable on its own terms. So Hungary is "international" all by itself, and that's before we get anywhere near Croatia, Dalmatia, etcetera. Now, I'm dressed for fairly hot weather here, so I didn't bring a wool hood or a heavier caftan, etcetera. But, essentially, if you can find a given clothing in the HRE (including Adriatic Italy), Poland, the northern and western balkans, and even, here and there, across the Carpathians into Ruthenia, etc., chances are there's somebody in the Kingdom of Hungary wearing it.
Oh again. Also, 14c Hungary had had an excellent economy (strong enough to let Louis plant a large expeditionary army into Naples, with no land border and beyond the territory of enemy Venice. We're talking huge costs here -- imagine if Edward III had been able to pursue his war without having to spend 3/4 of his time worrying about whether the wool trade would actually finance it!) and no sumptuary codes that we know of. While we're not sure about peasants entirely, we know that the non-noble classes dressed well and in styles not too dissimilar from their social betters (although usually less elaborated and less up-to-date for a number of obvious reasons).
bairdec wrote:About the Karacsonyfalva Wall-Painting you have on Picasa- what time frame is that from?
Dead on for what you want -- early 14c. Note that if you're playing SCA you'll have to find a way to hide your elbows, or use the ahistorical bazuband pattern with the extra protection.
bairdec wrote:I don't know how the caftans were used, and I don't think szurs were in use yet. I thought I saw you mention on a thread that you were using the caftan as a sort of arming coat, worn outside of the mail.
Earlier caftans tended to run down the center. What we have left of images running from Cumans all the way into the steppe shows a center seam for heavy leather caftans and such garments. For regular clothing, the diagonal wrap, as pictured in the kit, is the norm.
"Szur" means "fur" in Hungarian. I'm not sure what you mean, precisely. Probably I'm having a brain fart and forgetting some 16th-century stuff (or, at least stuff that's documented from then). We don't have documentation for sheepskin caftans in art yet except being worn by Wallachians... but it's very likely to have been the case much earlier, though such would definitely be quite a ways down the social ladder towards common soldiers and peasants (we're hamstrung by our loss of sources due to the Ottoman occupation, sadly... also note that archaeology suggests that peasants in Hungary were well-armed compared to their W. Euro contemporaries). I have no evidence to suggest that an "arming caftan" would have included points for heavy harness... though it seems a fairly obvious conjecture begging to get slapped down. I have, however, established two separate distinct uses of leather caftans worn... one, a light-weight, overlapping garment worn over mail, and another, a very thick garment apparently worn all by itself made of soft leather... likely anywhere from a half to 3/4 of an inch thick. No non-Cuman pictorial sources that I've hunted down, sadly, but the earlier examples all had a distince center seam, and ran down to around knee length. The length, at least, is supported via M. Villani.
bairdec wrote:The kit you have here, is it intended to be a Cuman outfit?
Hungarian. The helm is a fairly typical light-cavalry trick (would go under the hat). This persona is a Szekely in the service of Istvan Lackfi not long after the battle of Melito, so he's got gear with much more steppe influence. He could easily be wearing clothing very similar to what the other folks at CiT were, with very minor features. The boots would be closer to a turnshoe pattern even if they had a higher upper.
I am distinctly in the camp that thinks that reconstructions should have significant temporal conservatism to them unless the persona is somebody who would have been spot on the cutting edge of fashion, or in the retinue of somebody whose position would mandate giving gifts of clothing to said retinue for special social occasions such as marriages, births, etcetera. After all, even today you can walk around seeing 20-25 years of style playing out, and we're much more inclined to pitch stuff out, in an era where goods are cheap and labor scarce, than people would be under precisely the opposite economic conditions, particularly given the habit of giving away older clothes/gear as a form of largesse.
Also, something you should know, is that over the last decade or so, the idea that Hungarians overwhelmingly adopt heavy-cavalry gear, while leaving light-cav roles to the auxiliary nations, like a Carpathian version of the Roman Empire stereotypes, has been completely and thoroughly debunked. Instead, we're seeing that some serve as heavy, some light, and that service as light cavalry seems to be often preferred to service as heavy for reasons of mobility.
Note also that the Heder clan had a LOT of Cumans working for them/settled with them.
bairdec wrote:And I'm still thinking about how to do the shield- only about three more months before I go on mid-tour leave and I can play around a bit.
It's on my project list as well. The common documented shield wood is aspen, and they're relatively thick (some surviving hussar shields, not far at all from patterns shown in the Illuminated Chronicle, are an inch thick). Check the wallpainting -- those are some THICK shields. That's possibly counter-intuitive, but my experience in la canne, (they also pay attention to power generation... I've shattered-not-broken hardwood canes on heavy bags) was that a lightweight but overthick dowel was actually longer-lasting than a thinner, harder wood, so it seems to work. I intend to make an oval to start with, as it'll be easier than the compound forms -- I'm terrible at woodwork AND I've never made any shields before except small bucklers, usually in rawhide. When you get to that stage, pls. coordinate with me if you can.
bairdec wrote:Aaaand one last question for tonight- I can never bring up the scholarsvoices.com website listed in your profile. Is that still up?
It was a nice idea, and then Google scholar came out and made it worthless. So the business model is dead.
Thanks for the reply. That gives me a fair amount to look at and some better ideas on where to look for further research.
The szur is, in a reference I found, a sort overcoat. Szur might be the wrong name for it, since the article was by an American woman researching her Hungarian roots. I'm guessing that it was later on, since I don't see anything that looks like one in the Illuminated Chronicle.
The szur is, in a reference I found, a sort overcoat. Szur might be the wrong name for it, since the article was by an American woman researching her Hungarian roots. I'm guessing that it was later on, since I don't see anything that looks like one in the Illuminated Chronicle.
Sometimes you have fun, and sometimes the fun has you. -Sgt. Schlock
-
Russ Mitchell
- Archive Member
- Posts: 11800
- Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: HQ, Garden Gnome Liberation Front
- Contact:
Oh, for costume, see if you can get "Korok Ruhai" ("Clothing of the ages") by Endre Domanovszky. (the names will be reversed if you're talking to a Hungarian). It's a good source, in Hungarian, but has TONS of pictures, and the research is solid. I should cart it around with me, actually for folks to look at...
Also, look for the Turkic and steppe-looking guys in 14c Italian wall-paintings. They're mostly Hungarians.
Another caveat: all of this has been banged around politically forever. The Commies forced everybody to say that originally the HUngarians were steppe types, then they went western and totally forgot about this stuff, and then all of a sudden in the 16th century, "Bang!" the Hungarians "remembered" all this stuff b/c of Ottoman influence. (Ignore the fact that while western Europeans can't tell anybody from anybody else, Ottomans and Hungarians don't even look remotely similar in dress to the learned eye).
Then, post-Communist, folks started saying "hey, you know, maybe this is a touch more complicated," b/c all the 16c stuff we have isn't really a documentation of lots of new forms, so much as it is a vast explosion in how much *documentation we have.* Did all these fashions suddenly spring out of Zeus' forehead? But, again, this literally goes to established academic politics based on "here's your axe, grind it or else" Soviet-Era ideological policy. You wouldn't beLIEVE the hell my wife caught for simply pointing out that the vast numbers of "oriental" imagined figures from Italian wall-paintings just happen to match up with historical figures from the Carpathians that we know were running around Italy at the time.
Also, look for the Turkic and steppe-looking guys in 14c Italian wall-paintings. They're mostly Hungarians.
Another caveat: all of this has been banged around politically forever. The Commies forced everybody to say that originally the HUngarians were steppe types, then they went western and totally forgot about this stuff, and then all of a sudden in the 16th century, "Bang!" the Hungarians "remembered" all this stuff b/c of Ottoman influence. (Ignore the fact that while western Europeans can't tell anybody from anybody else, Ottomans and Hungarians don't even look remotely similar in dress to the learned eye).
Then, post-Communist, folks started saying "hey, you know, maybe this is a touch more complicated," b/c all the 16c stuff we have isn't really a documentation of lots of new forms, so much as it is a vast explosion in how much *documentation we have.* Did all these fashions suddenly spring out of Zeus' forehead? But, again, this literally goes to established academic politics based on "here's your axe, grind it or else" Soviet-Era ideological policy. You wouldn't beLIEVE the hell my wife caught for simply pointing out that the vast numbers of "oriental" imagined figures from Italian wall-paintings just happen to match up with historical figures from the Carpathians that we know were running around Italy at the time.
Ok, that's good to know.
Since it looks like I will need to reference a lot of Hungarian language stuff, maybe I oughta try to learn a bit of Hungarian. Do you have any books you'd recommend for learning the language, and perhaps a reference dictionary or two?
Since it looks like I will need to reference a lot of Hungarian language stuff, maybe I oughta try to learn a bit of Hungarian. Do you have any books you'd recommend for learning the language, and perhaps a reference dictionary or two?
Sometimes you have fun, and sometimes the fun has you. -Sgt. Schlock
-
Russ Mitchell
- Archive Member
- Posts: 11800
- Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: HQ, Garden Gnome Liberation Front
- Contact:
-
Russ Mitchell
- Archive Member
- Posts: 11800
- Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: HQ, Garden Gnome Liberation Front
- Contact:
bairdec wrote:Ok, that's good to know.
Since it looks like I will need to reference a lot of Hungarian language stuff, maybe I oughta try to learn a bit of Hungarian. Do you have any books you'd recommend for learning the language, and perhaps a reference dictionary or two?
"A bit" of Hungarian won't help you. Hungarians, sad to say, write in a more German style... I'm an intermediate speaker and need a dictonary to get nearly anywhere in their stuff. If you're serious, you need to find a local Hungarian group, and get with them for regular lessons, rather than going through a book.
Quick note here: I tried searching for "Korok Ruhai," and I didn't get anything relevant, mostly artsy-type sites. Apparently it's "Korunk Ruhai," which I got after doing a search on the author's name. Not to try to sharpsoot ya, 'cause I surely don't know enough to try....
And like so many other books I'd like to get, it's out of print.
And like so many other books I'd like to get, it's out of print.
Sometimes you have fun, and sometimes the fun has you. -Sgt. Schlock
Here's what I was thinking of when I mentioned the szur:
http://hungaria.org/ahm/index.php?projectid=4&menuid=271
One writeup from Hungaria.org:
Another:
I found a book about them on Amazon: The Hungarian szur;: An archaic mantle of Eurasian origin (History, technology and art monograph) by Veronika Gervers
http://hungaria.org/ahm/index.php?projectid=4&menuid=271
One writeup from Hungaria.org:
SZŰR
A magyar nép ősi, gyapjúból készült, több ezer éves ruhadarabja
A szűrt mindig férfiak - szűrszabók - készÃtették. A hÃmzés és rátétdÃszÃtés is az ő munkájukat dÃcséri.
An ancient type of coat made of fleece, worn by Hungarians for thousands of years
The szűr was always made by men, the so called szűr-tailors, embroidery and appliqué decoration included.
Another:
Worn by Magyar herdsmen in Hungary as far back as the Middle Ages, the Szur is a dramatic, mid-calf coat that was traditionally worn over the shoulders as a cape and lavishly decorated with cutwork felt appliqué. The geometric shapes of this garment make it an ideal canvas for other handwork techniques, as well as for handwoven fabrics... The Szur is traditionally made in felted wool with felt appliqués.
I found a book about them on Amazon: The Hungarian szur;: An archaic mantle of Eurasian origin (History, technology and art monograph) by Veronika Gervers
Sometimes you have fun, and sometimes the fun has you. -Sgt. Schlock
-
Russ Mitchell
- Archive Member
- Posts: 11800
- Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: HQ, Garden Gnome Liberation Front
- Contact:
bairdec wrote:Quick note here: I tried searching for "Korok Ruhai," and I didn't get anything relevant, mostly artsy-type sites. Apparently it's "Korunk Ruhai," which I got after doing a search on the author's name. Not to try to sharpsoot ya, 'cause I surely don't know enough to try....
And like so many other books I'd like to get, it's out of print.
It's a different book: trust me, I'm close enough to spill my coffee on it. Korunk Ruhai is "Clothing of Our Times," aka, "Modern clothes."
-
Russ Mitchell
- Archive Member
- Posts: 11800
- Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: HQ, Garden Gnome Liberation Front
- Contact:
Sometimes you have fun, and sometimes the fun has you. -Sgt. Schlock
-
Rudolph
- Archive Member
- Posts: 302
- Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:20 pm
- Location: Stonemarche- East Kingdom
Wow, great topic guys. Once again the Armour Archive has the knowledge. I am trying to push forward a few centuries from 10th to to the early 14th in my kit. Been looking for information on garb and armour that would reflect the Nitra Region (in modern day Slovakia) and have been having a tough time. Most of the books in English I have deal with more modern times, and I only know a few Slovak words and phrases (still learning). I'm sorry I don't have anything more to contribute at this time, just wanted to say thanks for this discussion.
House Stahlgeist
Righteous Brother of the Priory of St. Colin "The Dude"
Righteous Brother of the Priory of St. Colin "The Dude"
-
Donal Mac Ruiseart
- Archive Member
- Posts: 7265
- Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:56 am
- Location: North Frontier, Barony of Marinus, Kingdom of Atlantia (Norfolk, Virginia USA)
Wonder why this book has the (censored) image of an ancient Cretan goddess on the cover?
Donal Mac Ruiseart O. Pel
Squire to Viscount Tojenareum Grenville (TJ)
Be without fear in the face of thine enemies
Stand brave and upright that the Lord may love thee
Speak the truth always even if it means thy death
Protect the helpless and do no wrong
Squire to Viscount Tojenareum Grenville (TJ)
Be without fear in the face of thine enemies
Stand brave and upright that the Lord may love thee
Speak the truth always even if it means thy death
Protect the helpless and do no wrong
-
Russ Mitchell
- Archive Member
- Posts: 11800
- Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: HQ, Garden Gnome Liberation Front
- Contact:
Hey, Russ, do you know anything about a group called Mare Temporis? They seem to be a Hungarian reenactment / renfaire group, but the pics look like they do later period stuff. It looks like their events are enjoyable, at any rate.
http://www.maretemporis.hu
And I just realized they have an English-language version of their pages. I think I have a bit of reading to do.
http://www.maretemporis.hu
And I just realized they have an English-language version of their pages. I think I have a bit of reading to do.
Sometimes you have fun, and sometimes the fun has you. -Sgt. Schlock
I finally found a few English-language medieval references on the [url=http://mek.oszk.hu/hungalap/indexeng.html#jegyzek]Digital Library
of Hungarian Studies.[/url] I knew there must be a few, I just had a hard time digging them up.
Knight kings : The Anjou- and Sigismund age in Hungary (1301-1437)
[url=http://mek.oszk.hu/01900/01955/index.phtml][i]The Vazul-line : Kings of the Ã
of Hungarian Studies.[/url] I knew there must be a few, I just had a hard time digging them up.
Knight kings : The Anjou- and Sigismund age in Hungary (1301-1437)
[url=http://mek.oszk.hu/01900/01955/index.phtml][i]The Vazul-line : Kings of the Ã
Sometimes you have fun, and sometimes the fun has you. -Sgt. Schlock
-
Russ Mitchell
- Archive Member
- Posts: 11800
- Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: HQ, Garden Gnome Liberation Front
- Contact:
The Karacsonyfalva wallpaintings are unpublished. They were literally JUST DISCOVERED last year. Well, year and a half now.
I have to go administer an exam, but I'll take a more detailed look later at these sources. In the last of them, definitely pay attention to the article by Gergely Buzas: he can reconstruct an entire vaulting system from ONE surviving piece, he's that good. It's nearly eerie how well he understands gothic.
I have to go administer an exam, but I'll take a more detailed look later at these sources. In the last of them, definitely pay attention to the article by Gergely Buzas: he can reconstruct an entire vaulting system from ONE surviving piece, he's that good. It's nearly eerie how well he understands gothic.
-
Russ Mitchell
- Archive Member
- Posts: 11800
- Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: HQ, Garden Gnome Liberation Front
- Contact:
Okay, Internet access was down for a few days, so I decided to go through the images of the Illuminated Chronicle (Képes Krónika) while I had no distractions. I'm probably reinventing the wheel here, but I needed to do this for my own thought processes. I realize that just because something isn't shown doesn't mean it wasn't used. I just wanted to note what I did see in them. I will be posting the images on Picasa at http://picasaweb.google.com/bairdec/KPesKrNika. When I get the time I'll probably link the picture names to the pictures.
Impressions of civilian clothing from Képes Krónika (1360): Two types of hats are seen commonly. One is a rounded bowler-like hat with a close fur brim. The other is a hood with a shoulder-length liripipe. The bottom edge of the hood is can be [solid?] or dagged. Some hoods show a brown band along the hem or just above the dags. Eastern figures often have a peaked, winged cap.
The tunic is close fitting and collarless; no buttons are shown on either the sleeves or on the front. The tunic extends to just above the knee and is pleated, much like a kilt (*groan*) (King Salamon asks the German Emperor for help again). (Prince Géza and Abbot Villermus) shows the tunic being pulled over the head of the wearer. (The coronation of Stephen V) <s>is the sole exception to this, in that his tunic shows a line down the front. He also has a sizable gut.</s> (The hunt for the white stag) also shows a buttoned tunic, alongside buttonless tunics. Many figures wear an eastern-style caftan which can wrap diagonally left over right, or button (with toggles?) down the front, and usually extends to the ankle. Figures in a caftan often have a palm-sized medallion at the throat.
The belt is usually worn on the hips, is wide (two inch?), and has a palm-sized solid buckle. The belt end is not shown with this style. The thick belt in civilian dress is sometimes shown with the military dress, but pouches seem to always be absent in military and civilian dress. One illumination shows holes along the left side of the wearer. (King Salamon asks the German Emperor for help again) A few illuminations (The blinding of Prince Ã
Impressions of civilian clothing from Képes Krónika (1360): Two types of hats are seen commonly. One is a rounded bowler-like hat with a close fur brim. The other is a hood with a shoulder-length liripipe. The bottom edge of the hood is can be [solid?] or dagged. Some hoods show a brown band along the hem or just above the dags. Eastern figures often have a peaked, winged cap.
The tunic is close fitting and collarless; no buttons are shown on either the sleeves or on the front. The tunic extends to just above the knee and is pleated, much like a kilt (*groan*) (King Salamon asks the German Emperor for help again). (Prince Géza and Abbot Villermus) shows the tunic being pulled over the head of the wearer. (The coronation of Stephen V) <s>is the sole exception to this, in that his tunic shows a line down the front. He also has a sizable gut.</s> (The hunt for the white stag) also shows a buttoned tunic, alongside buttonless tunics. Many figures wear an eastern-style caftan which can wrap diagonally left over right, or button (with toggles?) down the front, and usually extends to the ankle. Figures in a caftan often have a palm-sized medallion at the throat.
The belt is usually worn on the hips, is wide (two inch?), and has a palm-sized solid buckle. The belt end is not shown with this style. The thick belt in civilian dress is sometimes shown with the military dress, but pouches seem to always be absent in military and civilian dress. One illumination shows holes along the left side of the wearer. (King Salamon asks the German Emperor for help again) A few illuminations (The blinding of Prince Ã
Sometimes you have fun, and sometimes the fun has you. -Sgt. Schlock
I may be able to get a copy of Dercsenyi, Dezso. The Hungarian Illuminated Chronicle - Chronica De Gestis Hungarorum. Budapest: Corvina Press, 1969. Is this a good edition? I also ordered a copy of Koruk Ruhai from antikva.hu, but there seems to be some issue with them shipping it.
Sometimes you have fun, and sometimes the fun has you. -Sgt. Schlock
-
Russ Mitchell
- Archive Member
- Posts: 11800
- Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: HQ, Garden Gnome Liberation Front
- Contact:
Dercsenyi should ABSOLUTELY be your priority. Korok Ruhai is a general work, with a lot that won't be relevant to what you specifically want to do.
That's a pretty good summation of figures in the Illuminated Chronicle. Don't mistake, however, the buttons shown on the very title piece with Louis the Great. Also, don't forget to reference the Italian wall-paintings discussed elsewhere.
That's a pretty good summation of figures in the Illuminated Chronicle. Don't mistake, however, the buttons shown on the very title piece with Louis the Great. Also, don't forget to reference the Italian wall-paintings discussed elsewhere.
-
Russ Mitchell
- Archive Member
- Posts: 11800
- Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: HQ, Garden Gnome Liberation Front
- Contact:
Ok, it looked like a gut to me because I thought the pigeon-breasted look was higher, and his belt sits at an angle like it does on overweight people, and he's the only one in the illuminations I found that looks like that. I also found another figure with a buttoned tunic- Emperor Conrad III. I hadn't looked too closely at the cover page since all the images I have of it are pretty small.
I intend to do summations with the wall paintings and other stuff I find. I'm just having trouble finding stuff that isn't Roman era or renaissance.
I intend to do summations with the wall paintings and other stuff I find. I'm just having trouble finding stuff that isn't Roman era or renaissance.
Sometimes you have fun, and sometimes the fun has you. -Sgt. Schlock
-
Russ Mitchell
- Archive Member
- Posts: 11800
- Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: HQ, Garden Gnome Liberation Front
- Contact:
Because of the dynastic considerations regarding the Neopolitan Angevins (who succeed after the Arpadians go away), Hungarians and Cumans frequently appear in 14c Italian wallpaintings. I point out a couple here and there, do a search for my name and "hungarian," and look into threads where they're discussing Italy.
Impressions from the Karácsonyfalva wall paintings (14th century), a depiction of the St. Ladislaus and the maiden story. Russ Mitchell has them on his Picasa site here
St. Ladislaus wears a loose fitting over tunic, with (fur?) edging on the hem of the wide sleeves which come down to his elbow. A fitted sleeve (of a cotehardie?) covers his arm under the over tunic, showing a line of buttons along the outside of the lower arms, and embroidery on the cuff. He wears a mantle or lowered hood which appears to be lined in linen. He wears a thin white belt with decorations around his waist, and a dagger is suspended on his right side from an early frog. The belt has maybe two feet of excess length tucked behind the belt and hanging down. He wears chausses and low shoes.
The civilian casualties on the ground all wear formless, collarless long tunics with belts or cords around their waists. Their feet are not shown.
The maiden is wearing a collarless dress, possibly with a [smock?], which has fitted sleeves and a line of buttons along the outside of the lower arms. She also wears some sort of headband and shoes. She wields a broad-bladed axe to strike at the Cuman's leg in one scene and the Cuman's sabre to decapitate him in another.
The Cuman wears a caftan with a cross-hatch pattern (woven?) and (embroidered?) decorations in the squares. The caftan is worn over a hauberk of maille, which appears to have an integral coif. He has an iron helm with a long spike on top. He wears a narrow white belt around his waist, and his sabre and bow case are on his left side (bow case opening is to the rear). He has a steppe warrior's bow. A box quiver can be seen on his right side. He wears chausses with no apparent shoes. The remaining Cuman troops are shown dressed similarly, although some are not shown with maille or helmets. The arrows shown use broadheads instead of bodkin points.
The Hungarian troops are generally shown with open faced bascinets and maille coifs. Two figures have a sugarloaf helm, one possibly with a klappvisor. They wear an under tunic or gambeson that comes down to the knees, and is not dagged under a sleeveless haubergon or skirt. Figures with exposed arms show metal vambraces with a rolled lower edge and rerebraces, but no discernable couter. One figure has full length sleeves without visible maille other than his coif. One figure has a short sleeved tunic over his maille. The remaining figures have an overtunic or coat of plates that resembles Byzantine lamellar with scalloped pauldrons. The figures have metal greaves and polyns where visible, except for the figure without a haubergon, who is shown with (non-maille) chausses. None of the figures have sabatons. One figure has a dagger on his right hip, but otherwise weapon scabbards are not shown on the Hungarian troops. The figure with the dagger is wearing a thin white belt with decorations, but no other details are apparent. Some figures are shown with spears / lances, but the spearheads are not visible. One uses what appears to be a sword, but it is buried deeply, nearly up to the hilt, into a Cuman's shoulder. The sword seems to have a lobed pommel and a very small crossguard (possible depiction of figs. 842c or 847 in Arms and Armor of the Crusading Era, David Nicolle). The shields used appear to be basic heater shields, but are very thick. No Hungarian figures are shown with a bow.
Sugarloaf w/ klappvisor? I don't really think so, but it almost looks like it.
St. Ladislaus wears a loose fitting over tunic, with (fur?) edging on the hem of the wide sleeves which come down to his elbow. A fitted sleeve (of a cotehardie?) covers his arm under the over tunic, showing a line of buttons along the outside of the lower arms, and embroidery on the cuff. He wears a mantle or lowered hood which appears to be lined in linen. He wears a thin white belt with decorations around his waist, and a dagger is suspended on his right side from an early frog. The belt has maybe two feet of excess length tucked behind the belt and hanging down. He wears chausses and low shoes.
The civilian casualties on the ground all wear formless, collarless long tunics with belts or cords around their waists. Their feet are not shown.
The maiden is wearing a collarless dress, possibly with a [smock?], which has fitted sleeves and a line of buttons along the outside of the lower arms. She also wears some sort of headband and shoes. She wields a broad-bladed axe to strike at the Cuman's leg in one scene and the Cuman's sabre to decapitate him in another.
The Cuman wears a caftan with a cross-hatch pattern (woven?) and (embroidered?) decorations in the squares. The caftan is worn over a hauberk of maille, which appears to have an integral coif. He has an iron helm with a long spike on top. He wears a narrow white belt around his waist, and his sabre and bow case are on his left side (bow case opening is to the rear). He has a steppe warrior's bow. A box quiver can be seen on his right side. He wears chausses with no apparent shoes. The remaining Cuman troops are shown dressed similarly, although some are not shown with maille or helmets. The arrows shown use broadheads instead of bodkin points.
The Hungarian troops are generally shown with open faced bascinets and maille coifs. Two figures have a sugarloaf helm, one possibly with a klappvisor. They wear an under tunic or gambeson that comes down to the knees, and is not dagged under a sleeveless haubergon or skirt. Figures with exposed arms show metal vambraces with a rolled lower edge and rerebraces, but no discernable couter. One figure has full length sleeves without visible maille other than his coif. One figure has a short sleeved tunic over his maille. The remaining figures have an overtunic or coat of plates that resembles Byzantine lamellar with scalloped pauldrons. The figures have metal greaves and polyns where visible, except for the figure without a haubergon, who is shown with (non-maille) chausses. None of the figures have sabatons. One figure has a dagger on his right hip, but otherwise weapon scabbards are not shown on the Hungarian troops. The figure with the dagger is wearing a thin white belt with decorations, but no other details are apparent. Some figures are shown with spears / lances, but the spearheads are not visible. One uses what appears to be a sword, but it is buried deeply, nearly up to the hilt, into a Cuman's shoulder. The sword seems to have a lobed pommel and a very small crossguard (possible depiction of figs. 842c or 847 in Arms and Armor of the Crusading Era, David Nicolle). The shields used appear to be basic heater shields, but are very thick. No Hungarian figures are shown with a bow.
Sugarloaf w/ klappvisor? I don't really think so, but it almost looks like it.
Sometimes you have fun, and sometimes the fun has you. -Sgt. Schlock
-
Russ Mitchell
- Archive Member
- Posts: 11800
- Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: HQ, Garden Gnome Liberation Front
- Contact:
Internet has been down for about a week....
I thought the Oghuz were civilians because I didn't see any weapons on them.
For those who don't know the Oghuz from Jack (like me), the summary from Wiki:
I thought the Oghuz were civilians because I didn't see any weapons on them.
For those who don't know the Oghuz from Jack (like me), the summary from Wiki:
The Oghuz (variously Ghuzz, Guozz, Kuz, Oguz, Oğuz, Okuz, Oufoi, Ouz, Ouzoi, Torks, Uguz, Uğuz, and Uz) were a group of loosely linked nomadic Turkic peoples. In the ninth century the Oghuz Turks from the Aral steppes drove the Pecheneg Turks of the Emba region and the River Ural toward the west. In the tenth century they inhabited the steppe of the rivers Sari-su, Turgai, and Emba to the north of Lake Balkhash of modern day Kazakhstan. [1] A clan of this nation, the Seljuks, embraced Islam and in the eleventh century invaded Persia, where it founded the Great Seljuk Empire.
Similarly in the eleventh century a pagan Oghuz clan -referred to as Uzes or Torks in the Russian chronicles- overthrew Pecheneg supremacy in the Russian steppe. Harried by another Turkic horde, the Kipchaks -a branch of the Kimaks of the middle Irtysh or of the Ob- these Oghuz penetrated as far as the lower Danube, crossed it, and invaded the Balkans, where they were either crushed[2] or struck down by an outbreak of plague, causing the survivors either to flee or to join the Byzantyne imperial forces as mercenaries (1065)[3].
Oghuz seem to have been related to the Pechenegs like whom some were clean-shaven and others having small 'goatee' beards. According to the book Attila and the Nomad Hordes, "Like the Kimaks they set up many carved wooden funerary statues surrounded by simple stone balbal monoliths."[4] The authors of the book go on to note that "Those Uzes or Torks who settled along the Russian frontier were gradually Slavicized though they also played a leading role as cavalry in twelfth and early thirteenth century Russian armies where they were known as Black Hats.... Oghuz warriors served in almost all Islamic armies of the Middle East from the eleventh century onwards, in Byzantium from the ninth century, and even in Spain and Morocco."[4] In later centuries, they adapted and applied their own traditions and institutions to the ends of the Islamic world and emerged as empire-builders with a constructive sense of statecraft.
Linguistically the Oghuz are listed together with the old Kimaks of the middle Yenisei of the Ob, the old Kipchaks who later emigrated to southern Russia, and the modern Kirghiz in one particular Turkic group, distinguished from the rest by the mutation of the initial y sound to j (dj).
"The term 'Oghuz' was gradually supplanted among the Turks themselves by Türkmen, 'Turcoman', from the mid tenth century on, a process which was completed by the beginning of the thirteenth."[5]
"The Ottoman dynasty, who gradually took over Anatolia after the fall of the Seljuks, toward the end of the thirteenth century, led an army that was also predominantly Oghuz."[6]
Sometimes you have fun, and sometimes the fun has you. -Sgt. Schlock
-
Russ Mitchell
- Archive Member
- Posts: 11800
- Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: HQ, Garden Gnome Liberation Front
- Contact:
Russ, do you know/ know about this guy (Zoltán György Horváth)? He seems to have a large collection of photos from churches / monuments. I'm planning on emailing him to see what he charges for the collections.
Sometimes you have fun, and sometimes the fun has you. -Sgt. Schlock