Waster Styles and Construction

Ismaels-Legacy · Post by **Ismaels-Legacy** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:59 am

I saw on here recently a wooden waster design that was used primarily in Germany for Messer combat. It basically looked like a blade with a hole cut in the center near the handle end, creating a knuckle guard. The only problem is that I can't remember what this waster was called and it seems the original post disappeared. Can anyone help me?

As a side note, is there any interest in Poplar wasters? I'm not making fancy, wall-hanging wasters, but simple, functional practice weapons.

EDIT: Corrected misspelled title and added in the Construction element as well...

Andrew Turnbull · Post by **Andrew Turnbull** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:24 am

Have a glace at THIS PAGEon my website. Look for the Dussacks down towards the bottom.

Ismaels-Legacy · Post by **Ismaels-Legacy** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:10 am

Those are the ones! Do you mind if I ask you about some of the wood you use? I know ideally, Hickory would be the best wood to use on wasters, but is Poplar and Red Oak equally as durable for light contact use?

Andrew Turnbull · Post by **Andrew Turnbull** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:39 am

IL,
I have found that Red Oak works well, though it is a bit lighter than Hickory. Poplar is good for the kids as it is cheaper, softer, and quite a bit lighter. I have had several of the folks from the SCA fencing groups have a good look at (some have even purchased) the poplar dussack as a hard parrying weapon.

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:19 pm

I vastly prefer Poplar, because:

1. It is relatively easy to hand-work to tweak as desired
2. For the same weight, it can be made quite thick, meaning it's much safer
3. At the same thickness, it's lighter, so it can be balanced right and still be much safer
4. At that thickness, it actually tends to be more durable than hardwood wasters -- it dings up an dents up, but doesn't tend to split or splinter.

I've never had a poplar cane (I do la canne as well) or waster break. I can't tell you how many hardwood types I've broken, or how many oak ones I've *shattered* playing cane.

Andrew Turnbull · Post by **Andrew Turnbull** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:29 pm

Russ,
Thanks for your input. I had wondered how it was that the poplar stuff was getting so popular. What kind of experiences have you had with hickory wasters? I have found them to be rather durable and tend to do the same as poplar-- dent and ding but not splinter. I have a personal preference for hickory as I like to get a good upper body workout in addition to my skill training.

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:49 pm

I know guys who like Hickory. I prefer hickory to Oak (which is my least favorite due to its tendency to split/splinter)... but I am very, VERY picky, and find that most wasters are badly overbuilt and turn into badly-balanced clubs (a well-made waster should have the same blade flex and blade stiffness characteristics that a steel one does, and this is not hard if one handcarves or knows how to use a joiner, grrrr). Most of what I've seen *in wasters* tends to follow that logic, so I haven't seen a hickory-made waster made to the tastes I'd prefer.

Andrew Turnbull · Post by **Andrew Turnbull** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:42 pm

I will confess that the wasters I build do not have "the same flex and blade stiffness characteristics that a steel one does,". I do work the blade and furniture bits to get the center of balance at the same point from the guard as a live steel sword. Would you do me the courtesy (in a PM perhaps so as not to derail the thread unless IL is amenable) to describe briefly how one would use a joiner to accomplish your requirements? You've got my curious side up now, especially since I'm always looking to improve my designs.

One other note... IL would you mind editing the title of this thread to read Waster instead of Water? Hate to be picky but as is it is a bit misleading and if we have a good title we may be able to draw more folk into the discussion.

Cheers,

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:01 pm

Sure. A joiner lets you take material off of wood in precise amounts, right? So start thick near the cross, then use the joiner to actually give it distal taper. It doesn't need to be more than 1/2" or 1/4" down by the tip, and the material being removed, you get a stiff edge, but a flexy flat, just like a real blade. And the weight and balance being right doesn't generally detract from the survivability at all. (EDIT: Poplar would obviously need to be a little thicker.. but as light as that is, still, np)

Any good woodworker should be able to show you how to do that, if you're not used to the machine -- this is nothing at all exotic.

Ismaels-Legacy · Post by **Ismaels-Legacy** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:08 pm

Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing this thread turn into a general topic on Waster construction in general, so please, continue where ever the discussion may take you!

So if I understand this correctly, poplar is slightly less durable than hickory, but it's also lighter and easier to balance? Red oak is durable but because of its nature, it will splinter with abuse, correct?

Next question: what do you use to finish the surface of your waster? In the tutorial I saw linked through here (Which I've used by the way), it mentions to use Linseed Oil and Mineral Spirits. Is there a benefit to this as opposed to a polyurethane coating? Is it a safety issue using oils as opposed to polyurethane?

Andrew Turnbull · Post by **Andrew Turnbull** » Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:01 pm

Joiner idea: Russ thank you so much. This makes a good deal of sense and I will do some further investigation, posting my results of course!

Finish: I stay away from anything that will not allow the wood itself to be treated over and over. I used to use linseed oil as it penetrates the wood as opposed to coating over top. The theory being that the wood is less likely to dry out and be more prone to failure. I am currently working with Danish Oil for the same reason. It penetrates into the wood and can keep the wood from drying out, making it less suseptable to cracking.

IL: Thanks for the title edit. Works very well.

Ismaels-Legacy · Post by **Ismaels-Legacy** » Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:49 am

That makes sense that an oiled waster would be more durable to repeated blows as opposed to a 'dry' one sealed with Polyurethane...

Ismaels-Legacy · Post by **Ismaels-Legacy** » Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:56 pm

Here's the end result for a hand-and-a-half sword crafted from red oak. Took about 3 hours to make (Not real sure of the actual time since I was working on two at the same time).

Rough shapes done with power tools, but the final work was done with a plane, rasp, and sand paper.

Three coats of Linseed Oil and it just SHINES!

Waster Styles and Construction

Waster Styles and Construction

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