Deeds of arms for early period personnas?

Fearghus Macildubh · Post by **Fearghus Macildubh** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:07 am

I've read the posts about the Combat of the Thirty and other deeds of arms with great appreciation, but also a little sadness. You see, what I desire to emulate is the earlier period part of the middle ages, even back unto the so called dark ages. Why? To be a champion like Finn MacCool, Cuchalain, Beowulf and Brithnoth. To evoke a time when bands of heroes met and did battle, seeking immortality in song by deeds of valor. To recreate a warband of early period types, meeting under the auspices of a High King to fight for justice and renown.

But no deeds of arms, right? So we're stuck with double elim tournaments, aren't we? Then a thought struck me, weren't early period battles more like deeds of arms? Certainly they were a l'outrance, but there was a desire for glory and renown and proving one's worth before the eyse of your lord and your people. Couldn't there be a deed where early period types emulate those types of battles? Champions meeting between the shield walls to duel before the flying dragons of the the fight are looosed. Pagentry and splendour would be important, bards and musicians would be there.

I don't want to horn in on what the CoT are doing, it's cool and awesome and so 14th century. Nor would I wish to use a pas d'armes format, once again cool and I don't want to dilute that format to make it fit the heroic age ideals I'm trying to espouse. I'll have to read more about the various sagas and tales to see what I can find.

Just an idea.

DELETEMYACCOUNT · Post by **DELETEMYACCOUNT** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:11 am

Challenge your opponent to battle feats. Demonstrations of skill and courage. Make shields out of thin plywood and fight till they break. Cast spears at each other and see who moves. lots of cool feats you can do in this setting.

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:04 am

BINGO!

Working on more research into this. TONS of tests of skills in battle arts went on at festivals and celebrations of all types. AND challenges at war camp, training (and early period warriors did train), and challenges before and DURING battles between individuals.

And not always to the death!

Donal Mac Ruiseart · Post by **Donal Mac Ruiseart** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:29 am

Dilan wrote:And not always to the death!

Aye, was there not a custom in some cultures akin to the Plains Indian custom of "taking coup," where you got prestige for doing somehing bold like hitting your enemy with a bare hand or a non-lethal instrument?

Skutai · Post by **Skutai** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:44 am

A Deed is more about attitude than time period. Just find a group of like-minded people and have at it.

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:47 am

Which all makes sense -

Why would a chieftain or King allow his finest warriors kill or maim themselves at a festival?

And, today's opponent was often tomorrow's ally, especially in Ireland. Cattle raids were almost as much sport as anything else - and often treated as such!

Skutai · Post by **Skutai** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:19 am

I have it on good authority that at this weekend's Coronation in Atlantia there will be a Deed of Arms reenacting Odin's Test for Unfaithful Wives.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GOfzL7dcCw

Or, I might be making that up. Only one way to find out!

Maelgwyn · Post by **Maelgwyn** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:17 am

I looked into this for a while in 2004 but didn't manage to make it happen. See http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... 59&start=0

Perhaps it is time to try again?

bigjon · Post by **bigjon** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:53 am

At Gulf War they have an actual mass on Saturday morning in the Green Dragon, we could always raid it. Take their wine and bread, sliver, and the women???? lol :lol:

Bleddyn De Caldicot · Post by **Bleddyn De Caldicot** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:36 pm

bigjon wrote:At Gulf War they have an actual mass on Saturday morning in the Green Dragon, we could always raid it. Take their wine and bread, sliver, and the women???? lol

In Njal's saga there is a scene where a man dares another to move out of the way of a spear being thrown at him and doesnt (luckily it misses) he then returns the favour to the man who threw and the pear is dead on. The first thrower dishonours himself by moving and the spear hits his brother behind him killing him.

A hall burning would be a cool scenario for an early period battle. Gotta fight your way out of the house within a certain time as it keeps schrinking (moving the hay bayls or something along those lines)

Fearghus Macildubh · Post by **Fearghus Macildubh** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:15 pm

The link to the Battle of Badon proposal rocks. That's more what I'm looking for. A good mix of history and heroic inspiration. Holding the bridge would be another good feat.

DELETEMYACCOUNT · Post by **DELETEMYACCOUNT** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:58 pm

I always wanted to face an enemy host with a rope around my ankle, staked to the ground. Something romantic about that kind of death that always impressed me.

Baron Conal · Post by **Baron Conal** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:31 am

Skutai wrote:I have it on good authority that at this weekend's Coronation in Atlantia there will be a Deed of Arms reenacting Odin's Test for Unfaithful Wives.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GOfzL7dcCw

Or, I might be making that up. Only one way to find out!

Now I'm gonna have to watch it again....

can't find a picture of the test itself....

declangalvin · Post by **declangalvin** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:58 pm

They did one in Al'Baran (Outlands) at the end of June. The idea was a Norse feat of arms, real small bear pit (end of the world was a foot behind your back foot), specific weapons, looked like a lot of fun (I was missing some armor and couldn't compete).

Sigurd of Jorvik · Post by **Sigurd of Jorvik** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 4:16 am

Since this is the time period I also love for what it is worth I'm all about it too.

You could take 4 8' ash poles and make a square and have the opponents duel counted blows or some-such.

All the dueling should be preceded by as much boasting as possible, followed by much ale and mead at the end.

It would be epic. Axe throwing, spear casting, duels, break away shields, spear and shield duels, dane axe duels, boasting and end it with an awesome feast. Valhalla at Pennsic '09. Let's do it!

AEiric Orvender · Post by **AEiric Orvender** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:56 am

I love this idea!!!

My thoughts on a Celtic style challenge:

each fighter has 3 thrust and thro javelins a small shield (max 20" across) and a dagger.

I like the thrown spear challenge 2 fighters face each other with 3 javelins and the small shield and attempt to score a "kill"

or you could have a hÃ³lmgang where you have a limited eirk and anyone 'killed or knocked out of the borders is the looser.

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:39 am

It would be seventeen levels of cool to see something like that done up right.

Those wacky Thirty kids have some reference works to base their efforts off of; what works would be cited in the design of an early-period deed? The Mabinogion? What else?

Fearghus, you should do it. Do it right! Grab the bit and run. It would be LEGENDARY.

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:53 am

Make a whole event of it!

Foot races (armored and unarmored), spear throwing contests, tests of strength, challenge bouts, etc....

End of the day, announce a champion who get the "champion's portion" of the meat, as well as prizes. Have bards sing or tell tales of the day.

Armored combat fields could include the sword (single sword), the shield (sword and shield), the short spear (and shield) and the long spear. Dagger and short axe fights too!

These fights would be very formalized - boasts, challenges, weapons matched, etc.... In many ways the Heroic Age warrior was MORE bound by ceremony and tradition than their 14thc counterparts.

Man, Mt. Badon.... Fights at the river ford.... Battle of the Red Branch house! LOTS of possibilities!

Saritor · Post by **Saritor** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:32 am

Dilan wrote:And, today's opponent was often tomorrow's ally, especially in Ireland. Cattle raids were almost as much sport as anything else - and often treated as such!

I once set about designing a melee scenario that was a cattle raid, involving large, unwieldy, "rolling" cattle constructed of something heavy enough that you needed a group of two or three to pull the thing across the field.

Maybe I should dig up my notes on that.

Bastior · Post by **Bastior** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:16 pm

Try and break out of an island instead, get all the saxons and danes you can and put the danes on an island with a narrow ford (the marshal may need a snorkel) then when the saxons get tierd of holding the ford the danes can slaughter them all on the open field they fall back to.

If you go for a melee I would think it'd be important to start the 2 sides well out of range so would be heros have the space to step forwards and scream abuse and challanges while being out of range. Get some nice champion verses champion fighting going before the shieldwalls charge.

There's always treasure (well sacks of sand anyway) hidden around the buildings for a raid type scenario. I've always wanted to do this with armoured non combatants to protect/enslave as well but there are logistical issues with that. It could also be fun for those people with monk costumes.

You may also want to award prizes on the basis of cool points as well for those people who really got into the spirit of the event and made it more viking/celt/whatever time period you picked. If you do it as a themed event then at the feast people who were outstanding either in theme or skill could be given ale or mead on the orders of their warchief so they get the recognition without pushing the budget skyhigh.

B

Robert of Canterbury · Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:34 pm

Here you go,

Make your challenge like this. In Court, on your newsgroups etc.. Ask your king for his blessing.

â€œI Fergus Macildubh make this claim. I am foremost of My King's champions, Favoured of his feast hall and I claim the right to carve the hero's portion of the pig at my Kings feast on (Insert event X) . Let any Man who would naysay me meet me at noon of that day and match their hand to their boasts.

With the wounding warspear let them speak their worth, and with cunning cast of javelins let rejoinder then be made, with Iron Brand and battle door be our boasts balanced, with knives at last let us our names renown make known.

There follows a tourney in which the initial seeding is determined by the order in which the challenge is answered.

Fighters are ordered, and only the next in line may fight the champion.

But, any man may challenge up the line, or down it, and once a challenger has lost they are out.

Best of three from First to three with seven foot spears; first to three with thrust and throw javelin, Sword and centre grip shield; and first to three with two eighteen inch blades.

No-one to enter without decent appearance. No Plate, no (visible) plastic, no belly belts no sneakers. No Heraldic shields, but painted designs a must. No exposed Aluminium shield backs, if they don't look right don't accept their challenge. "Warriors do not brawl with Cowherds, Be off with you little man"

At the feast that evening, you will need to organise for a roast pig to be served, and the winner gets to carve.

Cool enough for you?

More thoughts along these lines here,
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=43860

Greenshield · Post by **Greenshield** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:55 pm

We are actually organizing something comperable to The 30 for early period persona's at this years Gulf Wars. We will post more information as the time draws near. For those wishing to suggest ideas and/or participate please feel free to contact me here.

The entry rules for kit will be as strict as COT so start working on those kits now.

GreenShield+

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:37 pm

No, no, no.

With respect to those who've posted before, don't make it an event, melee, or tourney. Because that has been done before. Do something different. Find something new, and raise the bar for your interest area.

Saritor · Post by **Saritor** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:40 pm

Baron Alejandro wrote:With respect to those who've posted before, don't make it an event, melee, or tourney. Because that has been done before. Do something different. Find something new, and raise the bar for your interest area.

Does this mean you're not in favor of a 16th century styled tournament where the battles are fought in mock Arthurian themes in a storyline?

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:45 pm

Saritor wrote:Does this mean you're not in favor of a 16th century styled tournament where the battles are fought in mock Arthurian themes in a storyline?

Donal Mac Ruiseart · Post by **Donal Mac Ruiseart** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:07 am

Baron Alejandro wrote:With respect to those who've posted before, don't make it an event, melee, or tourney.

Uh, 'Jandro, what is left? Especially if you say 'don't make it an event.' ?

Oswyn_de_Wulferton · Post by **Oswyn_de_Wulferton** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:24 pm

Reviving an older thread...

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=69863