Living history trestle table tops.

Talbot · Post by **Talbot** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:39 am

LH guys-- what to you use for your table tops? I have three 1x12 boards but they warp in the wet weather.

Fire Stryker · Post by **Fire Stryker** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:07 pm

Hi Doug,

I'll take a look at ours when I get home. We have two but I can't remember the thickness of the board on our big one. I'll also get the measurements of the depth. I know they're deeper than 12" and I suspect they're thicker than 1". I believe that the length is 8 feet on the big one and 6 feet on the smaller one.

Talbot · Post by **Talbot** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:13 pm

Thanks!

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:23 pm

They are both cut from the same board, our tops - a slab of fir, I believe, close to 2" thick - a little narrower than I would have preffered, but they work. I will tape the one I have out tonight.

Mine stubby one is my campaign desk, and I pull it in of nights at events, which may make a significant difference. The big board comes in as well, just to prevent warping.

Baron Conal · Post by **Baron Conal** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:31 pm

the way lumber is cut now ( not quartersawn )
is one of the biggest reasons that boards warp
so badly.

Thicker boards might help.

making a single piece table top with a cleat
running across the boards would help but not
good for the living history goal....

You might be able to glue two boards together
so that the warping potentials are opposite each
other....but that takes something to use as a press
to get right ( or a buttload of clamps )

rough drawing of what I mean is attached....

Thomas Powers · Post by **Thomas Powers** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:26 pm

Go with quartersawn lumber! If you can hand pick your boards you may be able to find some quartersawn ones as a byproduct of modern sawing technique.

Thomas

Baron Conal · Post by **Baron Conal** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:13 pm

Thomas Powers wrote:Go with quartersawn lumber! If you can hand pick your boards you may be able to find some quartersawn ones as a byproduct of modern sawing technique.

Thomas

Or look for a lumber mill close to you and ask if they can quarter
saw something for you..... Might have to buy more than you will
need for just the table top ... might not... It doesn't hurt to ask.

( and tell them what it is for.... That might help you get their
attention and interest peaked )

more info on why quartersawn is a good choice....

http://www.allwoodwork.com/article/wood ... ersawn.htm

Jeff J · Post by **Jeff J** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:33 pm

Ditto on the quartersawn. I've been making all my better grade table tops, bench parts and chair seats and backs from quarter-sawn white oak, fumed to simulate European brown oak.

I'm setting up to do a set of tops for LaBelle as my next project, so we can get away from the multiple pine plank setup. I spend about $3.50 a board foot for 4/4 QS lumber.

It you want to use less expensive lumber; firs, spruce, other pines, think about breadboarding the ends, or sliding-dovetail a support piece to stabilize the surface. Even with q-sawn, it's not a bad idea to add the stabilizers. I can document both to the 15th & 16th Centuries.

Also, if you don't need long tables, look at stair treads. They are a bit thicker than 1 bys, and are generally pretty stable.

Whatever you use, put a few coats of boiled linseed oil on it to cut down on the moisture fluxuations that cause short-term warping.

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:45 pm

BaronConal wrote:the way lumber is cut now ( not quartersawn )
is one of the biggest reasons that boards warp
so badly.

Thicker boards might help.

making a single piece table top with a cleat
running across the boards would help but not
good for the living history goal....

You might be able to glue two boards together
so that the warping potentials are opposite each
other....but that takes something to use as a press
to get right ( or a buttload of clamps )

rough drawing of what I mean is attached....

And, if the wood wants to warp.. you are gonna blow the glue joint apart.

quartersawn would _help_, but won't eliminate the issue.

Wood warps.. it's what it does.

If you really want "warp free" wood, find green trees, _split_ the balks out, and plane em to top. That way you've already "freed" the stresses that generally cause warp, and are less likely to run into them down the road.

But all wood moves.. it's it's nature during humidity changes.

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:52 pm

We used 6/4 alder in strips, then nailed cleats across the bottom. Stabilizes it.

John
Jehan de Pelham, ecuyer and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:01 pm

THe table top I have is actually 1 1/4" thick, by 17 1/2" wide, by 60" long, and it is actually spruce, I believe.

Don't limit yourself to oak, Medieval Europeans certainly didn't. My trestles are ash, and my board is spruce, and this combination is matched by the mention in an inventory of a set of trestles and board lost to a London mob when Bayards castle was sacked during turn of the 15th century unrest.

A wide quartersawn oak board is the least likely, and one of the most costly pieces of lumber you are likely to come across.

Also, a good many camps look like "the outdoor museum of Medieval Furniture", which, in my mind, is just as wrong looking as a bunch of directors chairs and picnic tables - people did not lug around a crapload of furniture with them "on campaign". My guys are building up 'ammunition chests' for seating and storage - you are far more likely to have cases of bolts, and chests for powder, than lugging around 4 poster beds and armoires.

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:32 pm

chef de chambre wrote:THe table top I have is actually 1 1/4" thick, by 17 1/2" wide, by 60" long, and it is actually spruce, I believe.

Don't limit yourself to oak, Medieval Europeans certainly didn't. My trestles are ash, and my board is spruce, and this combination is matched by the mention in an inventory of a set of trestles and board lost to a London mob when Bayards castle was sacked during turn of the 15th century unrest.

A wide quartersawn oak board is the least likely, and one of the most costly pieces of lumber you are likely to come across.

Also, a good many camps look like "the outdoor museum of Medieval Furniture", which, in my mind, is just as wrong looking as a bunch of directors chairs and picnic tables - people did not lug around a crapload of furniture with them "on campaign". My guys are building up 'ammunition chests' for seating and storage - you are far more likely to have cases of bolts, and chests for powder, than lugging around 4 poster beds and armoires.

That is also dependant on your portrayal though.. Field of Gold? You would have the absolute nicest stuff you owned, and ALL of it.

A campaign stop somewhere? not so much.

Jeff J · Post by **Jeff J** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 8:23 pm

chef de chambre wrote:Don't limit yourself to oak, Medieval Europeans certainly didn't. My trestles are ash, and my board is spruce, and this combination is matched by the mention in an inventory of a set of trestles and board lost to a London mob when Bayards castle was sacked during turn of the 15th century unrest.

A wide quartersawn oak board is the least likely, and one of the most costly pieces of lumber you are likely to come across.

Sure, I've got spruce planked table tops. And, if you happen to have access to quarter-sawn spruce, you may not get the cupping that I've experienced with spruce planks that have seen exposure to weather (thickness irrelavent) . There's a spruce/Birch table from Aosta I've been working a repro pattern for. It's not going outdoors with a spruce top.

Baron Conal · Post by **Baron Conal** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 10:17 pm

chef de chambre wrote:
A wide quartersawn oak board is the least likely, and one of the most costly pieces of lumber you are likely to come across.

Not quoting you as a negative but to make a point.

Most people stop as soon as they think quartersawn oak
because QS oak gets all the 'press'. Many other woods
are available cheaper than oak. QSing oak does result
in a grain pattern that you do not get much of when it is
not QS. The arts and crafts movement capitalized that
grain pattern and made it popular. The demand for it
makes it worth more.

I've got a chest i made from a piece of poplar plywood
that had a bird's eye pattern. I had never heard of any
other BE than BE maple. So I set that sheet aside and
used it for something for myself....

Any wood can be QS and will be more stable ( but not
warp proof ) that rift sawn lumber.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:45 am

Maeryk wrote:
chef de chambre wrote:THe table top I have is actually 1 1/4" thick, by 17 1/2" wide, by 60" long, and it is actually spruce, I believe.

Don't limit yourself to oak, Medieval Europeans certainly didn't. My trestles are ash, and my board is spruce, and this combination is matched by the mention in an inventory of a set of trestles and board lost to a London mob when Bayards castle was sacked during turn of the 15th century unrest.

A wide quartersawn oak board is the least likely, and one of the most costly pieces of lumber you are likely to come across.

Also, a good many camps look like "the outdoor museum of Medieval Furniture", which, in my mind, is just as wrong looking as a bunch of directors chairs and picnic tables - people did not lug around a crapload of furniture with them "on campaign". My guys are building up 'ammunition chests' for seating and storage - you are far more likely to have cases of bolts, and chests for powder, than lugging around 4 poster beds and armoires.

That is also dependant on your portrayal though.. Field of Gold? You would have the absolute nicest stuff you owned, and ALL of it.

A campaign stop somewhere? not so much.

How many people are portraying the King of England or France? (or a Duke, or an Earl, in such a circumstance) How many people could realistically pull such a portrayal off?

Actually, we do have lists of items available - for instance, the lists the Swiss made of the loot captured from the Burgundians at Morat and Grandson - there is a dearth of furniture. Furniture for CHarles the Bold (heck, he had a portable, take-down wooden house), and the Comte de Roche, and a few others, but there isn't anything like 1200 camp beds (just to cover the knights and men at arms), and they were painstakingly detailed lists. We also have John Howards itemized list of possessions for the 1482 campaign against the Scots. (for someone much lower down the totem pole)

Seriously, this is a MAJOR portrayal flaw, especially in reenactment and living history groups - and it is entirely based around modern camping comfort and percieved needs. It gives a completely inappropriate impression to the public.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:48 am

Jeff J wrote:
chef de chambre wrote:Don't limit yourself to oak, Medieval Europeans certainly didn't. My trestles are ash, and my board is spruce, and this combination is matched by the mention in an inventory of a set of trestles and board lost to a London mob when Bayards castle was sacked during turn of the 15th century unrest.

A wide quartersawn oak board is the least likely, and one of the most costly pieces of lumber you are likely to come across.

Sure, I've got spruce planked table tops. And, if you happen to have access to quarter-sawn spruce, you may not get the cupping that I've experienced with spruce planks that have seen exposure to weather (thickness irrelavent) . There's a spruce/Birch table from Aosta I've been working a repro pattern for. It's not going outdoors with a spruce top.

Not all Medeival lumber was quarter sawn, however.

The problem reduces dramatically when one does not bring an entire households worth of furniture into the field (and many people do - take a look at some post-mortem inventories, and wills of middle class people, some people bring as much furniture camping as an entire household owned).

Glen K · Post by **Glen K** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:39 am

That is also dependant on your portrayal though.. Field of Gold? You would have the absolute nicest stuff you owned, and ALL of it.

Maybe... I can't remember any living history folks who's impression was Henry VIII.

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:07 pm

Glen K wrote:
That is also dependant on your portrayal though.. Field of Gold? You would have the absolute nicest stuff you owned, and ALL of it.

Maybe... I can't remember any living history folks who's impression was Henry VIII.

Plenty of retainers in place, as well, though.

Jeff J · Post by **Jeff J** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:59 pm

chef de chambre wrote:Seriously, this is a MAJOR portrayal flaw, especially in reenactment and living history groups - and it is entirely based around modern camping comfort and percieved needs. It gives a completely inappropriate impression to the public.

A few extra pieces of furniture is hardly the "MAJOR" flaw of reenacting. Try the dearth of camp followers, servants, lack of disease, missing livestock, wagons, dozens of horses to support the whole group, local townspeople, nature of provisions, prolifferation of tents vice use of local buildings, lack of wagons, and several hundreds/thousands of people who should be in the area also on campaign...

The furniture sitting in and outside of tents can represent what SHOULD be the environment the reenacting group would be found in - a castle, manor house, villiage, etc.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:10 pm

I said, and I quote

"A major flaw", I didn't say it was *THE* major flaw.

A ton of furniture, that would not be present, in my opinion, is not a good replacement, or substitue for location, or a lack of population.

Your milage may vary, but to my mind, it gives a very poor representation of camp life.

Andrew Young · Post by **Andrew Young** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:34 am

chef de chambre wrote:
Not all Medeival lumber was quarter sawn, however.

Bingo. Chef has it right.

Some pieces were, some were not. And he is equally right that the Arts and Crafts moment did indeed popularize many things like QS that were not necessarily widespread.

Woods strength also depends highly on what its being used for. To this end Maeryk is correct that wood does what it wants sometimes.

And to wit, I have a lat pull down machine in my weight room. I used a 4 x 6 piece of pressure treated pine.....I am amazed that a piece of wood that thick has still bowed under the use of the weight machine....which I dont use every second of the day mind you. But the force of 600 lbs pulled against its vertical axis has been enough, over time, to warp it forward a few inches.

Andrew Young · Post by **Andrew Young** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:38 am

chef de chambre wrote:I said, and I quote

"A major flaw", I didn't say it was *THE* major flaw.

A ton of furniture, that would not be present, in my opinion, is not a good replacement, or substitue for location, or a lack of population.

Your milage may vary, but to my mind, it gives a very poor representation of camp life.

JeffJ wrote

A few extra pieces of furniture is hardly the "MAJOR" flaw of reenacting. Try the dearth of camp followers, servants, lack of disease, missing livestock, wagons, dozens of horses to support the whole group, local townspeople, nature of provisions, prolifferation of tents vice use of local buildings, lack of wagons, and several hundreds/thousands of people who should be in the area also on campaign...

The furniture sitting in and outside of tents can represent what SHOULD be the environment the reenacting group would be found in - a castle, manor house, villiage, etc.

Well, how about a historical compromise fellas.....what about furniture taken/plundered from local homes, local villages, castles etc. Wont work if your campaigning in the middle of the Sahara but its more than plausible for any scenario near a village, town, etc

Alex Baird · Post by **Alex Baird** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:39 am

Andrew Young wrote:Well, how about a historical compromise fellas.....what about furniture taken/plundered from local homes, local villages, castles etc. Wont work if your campaigning in the middle of the Sahara but its more than plausible for any scenario near a village, town, etc

Speaking of which, and to return to the subject, one local household uses a "church door" for their camp table (actually, a bunch of planks made up to look like a looted door).

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:54 pm

Well, the ideal would be to use, if camping on campaign, and not someone with their own personal cart for impedements, whatever the locals you are bileted nears stuff, and then chop it up for the cooking fire on the day you are preparing to move off.

Stuff like your rough hewn stool, would be ideal, just like a 'borrowed' door. The officers would have a few items of portable furniture, and everyone else would be descending like a hoard of locusts, and adapting whatever was available to their purpose.

JUst like in the ACW campo, craker boxes are the best sort of 'furniture' for the private soldier.

Tibbie Croser · Post by **Tibbie Croser** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:05 am

At Jamestowne Settlement, the reconstructed houses had some chests with boards laid over them serving as beds/benches. Is that plausible, at least for that setting?

miscreant · Post by **miscreant** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:32 pm

On another thread, there was a link to a reenactment group out of Sweden and in one of their living history encampments they were using a pavise for a table top. I found that rather interesting. Plausible?

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:05 pm

Flittie wrote:At Jamestowne Settlement, the reconstructed houses had some chests with boards laid over them serving as beds/benches. Is that plausible, at least for that setting?

HI Flittie,'

I would say absolutely yes - chests are the one item of furniture that would be coming across, rather than being made on site - the worldly possession had to go somewhere. Plimoth has that same sort of thing, with each family having some sort of jacobean monstrosity of a chest/wardrobe/whatever, and a bunch of new made rough stuff.

Barrels, too, in that circumstance, as there would be bunches of barrels for each chest brought, carrying provisions, or acting as the cardboard boxes of the day.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:07 pm

miscreant wrote:On another thread, there was a link to a reenactment group out of Sweden and in one of their living history encampments they were using a pavise for a table top. I found that rather interesting. Plausible?

I think so. Check out the plates from Das Mitllealterich Hausbuch, and the IMperial camp, you see all sorts of cluged together objects in and around it.

They probably based it off of soime artwork, no doubt.