Landsknecht Helmet Sallet/Burg hybrid.

mattmaus · Post by **mattmaus** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:08 pm

So...

A while back, someone sent me a picture. I lost the message, so I forgot who...

It's this one here:
[img]http://members.armourarchive.org/mattmaus/salsbury/Salsorig.jpg[/img]

I'm not real sure what to call it. I'm fairly certain that I've seen documentation for it, or something very very similar, maybe in one of my woodcut books. As near as I can grok it's an evolutionary step away from sallets, and into burgonets.

So I made this.

[img]http://members.armourarchive.org/mattmaus/salsbury/Salsbury01.jpg[/img]

http://members.armourarchive.org/mattma ... bury02.jpg
http://members.armourarchive.org/mattma ... bury03.jpg
http://members.armourarchive.org/mattma ... bury04.jpg
http://members.armourarchive.org/mattma ... bury05.jpg

The details:
Mild steel
12g bowl from Cet
14g remainder
1/4" bars
20g plume holder.
Scotchbritey roloc finish.
I forgot to measure it. My head is 23 3/4" and it bobbles a bit with one layer of ble camp pad. I would say 23.5" head would fit with 3/4" of padding give or take, and I'll have more details shortly.

The Bad News (TM).
I'm Pretty sure it was DietrichUhl who inquired about this. I've been trying to get in touch with him through PM and E-Mail but with no response.
I want to give him "dibs".

So.... this is sort of like a pre-possibility-sale.

Offering this up for $200.00 plus $20.00 for S+H to the CONUS.

Will happily take second dibs for now, and probably offer it up in full by monday afternoon.

Randy W · Post by **Randy W** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:31 pm

I need a smaller head. you keep making these sweet helms and they always end up an 1 1/2" too small :sad:

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:29 pm

Nice helm, it has your touch, and at a bargain basement price to.

Looks like you are gonna give Hjlmar a run for his money....

:wink:

Hal

twoswords · Post by **twoswords** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:51 am

*Wail*

Its to small for me! I have put a link up on my groups forum, lets see if anmy of them need a new helm for a VERY good price. :shock:

Sigurd Fjalarson · Post by **Sigurd Fjalarson** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:37 am

Sweet helm Matt.

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:00 am

You might want to get in touch with Dweezle here on the archive, he might be very interested in this.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:02 pm

What does "bobble" mean? I have a 23 3/4 head to.

This helm is super sweet.

mattmaus · Post by **mattmaus** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:45 pm

I've had some questions about size, what it looks like on and so forth, so here goes, one post hopefully answering all questions.

I took some more concrete measurements on it.
It is safely 9.75" front to back, 8" side to side and 28" around at the brow.

This picture shows the helmet, Harry the happy helmet padding jig, and my old (dirty) padding from my previous helmet.
[img]http://members.armourarchive.org/mattmaus/salsbury/Salspad01.jpg[/img]
Harry is blue camp pad from walmart. I usualy size most stuff to fit me with him on, or with a bit extra. I have a larger head. The grubby pad is a layered conglomeration. It is 1 layer of heavy/dense upholstery stuffing foam 1" thick + 1 layer of squishy foam 1/4" thick, 1 layer of old towel, and 1 layer of muslin. Everything but the uhplostery stuff has been stitched together. All told it's about 1" worth of padding when I wear it.

Irish, when I say "bobble" I mean just that. With Harry in the helmet I have about 1/4" front to back, and 1/2" side to side, and it sits a little low. For what it's worth my mellon is to my interpretation slightly long and narrow compared to most folks.

Pictures of me wearing it with Harry in the helmet:
[img]http://members.armourarchive.org/mattmaus/salsbury/Salsburyon01.jpg[/img]
[img]http://members.armourarchive.org/mattmaus/salsbury/Salsburyon02.jpg[/img]

Like I said, sits a little lower on me than I think it would be comfortable with the blue foam in there. With the other padding, it sits higher that I would want, and it squeezes my poor brain too tightly.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:26 pm

I'm bumping this because that is a cool helm.

must...resist...temptation...of...purchase... :sad:

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 4:22 pm

If no one else has spoken for it, I'll buy it.

Please PM if/when available and what shipping to 99801 will be.

mattmaus · Post by **mattmaus** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 4:31 pm

Karl,

Right now you're 5th in line, and I'm off to contact #1.

Guessing that the package weight is gonna run about 14 lbs, USPS is telling me about $33 for priority mail.

DietrichUhl · Post by **DietrichUhl** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:16 am

So I take some time off the list and my dreams happen without me.

Hello all sorry for taking a break. I am interested in the helmet.

-Dietrich

woodwose · Post by **woodwose** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:42 pm

wow, thats nice looking. I wish it fit my tiny 22" head as well as it fits my tiny budget :sad:

hjalmr · Post by **hjalmr** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:52 pm

Halberds wrote:Nice helm, it has your touch, and at a bargain basement price to.

Looks like you are gonna give Hjlmar a run for his money....

Hal

Damn, you aint kidding...
Unfortunately its a littel to big for me to buy. Lol..

(^_^)

Syrfinn · Post by **Syrfinn** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:14 pm

Thats really nice. Nice work, I like the lines and the look.

DietrichUhl · Post by **DietrichUhl** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:08 am

Dweezle wrote:wow, thats nice looking. I wish it fit my tiny 22" head as well as it fits my tiny budget

Having gotten it.
The pictures do not do it justice. The welds are great. The finish work on it is very good. He took the time to clean up his work wonderfully. After getting the helmet and seeing the work ethic used to make it. I recommend Mattmausâ€™ work. If you see something he is selling and you are wondering if it is cheap work, it is not.

Tonight I hope to fit the helmet. It is a little big on my head also but given that Landsknechts would cobble together what armor they could, it should be perfect.

I got the helmet design off of a European Landsknecht groups photos. http://www.kriegsleute1523.org/pictures.html
Dweezle the helmet looks like a transitional piece from a Sallet to a Burgonet. It fits the right era for the helmet to have existed. I canâ€™t say that it did exist, from a period source. Only that I liked the blending of the shapes and saw someone else using it. I know that is poor research on my part but I like the helm.

With this helm I feel valid in posting my kit. I hope to get a few good photos soon.
-Dietrich

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:48 am

I'd call it a "Sturmhaube".

Vigmund Gunnarson · Post by **Vigmund Gunnarson** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:21 pm

I actually donÂ´t intend to be a nitpicker :lol:

, but "Sturmhaube" is just the translation for "burgeonet". I though have to admit that I donÂ´t know a special name for this type of helm :wink:

. LetÂ´s give it the name "Sallegonet" :twisted:

Anyways: Mattmaus you did an awesome job there, I very much like your work.

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:51 pm

Oh, I agree: it's just a Burgeonet. But I like the term, "Sturmhaube" better.

For one, it's German. For two, it makes me think of "storm troopers". :wink:

Munz · Post by **Munz** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:11 pm

There is a very similar type sallet/burgonet 16th cent. helmet in the Armeria del Palacio Real de Madrid. The catalog I have is only in Spanish so I can't give you any of the written details (if anyone has this book, it's on page 39 lower right corner). It does have a hinged fall or brim, and from the angle in the picture it looks like there are two tail lames. the over all effect is that of a sallet and burgonet combo. No clue on its origin of manufacture.

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:28 am

What, exactly, is it about this helmet to make you associate the term "sallet" with it?

It's got a brim and a short, segmented tail. Sallets have no brim, and their tails are usually pointed and/or elongated.

Sorry to nitpick here :lol:

but I think it's a straight-up burgeonet. (With roping and shit.) :wink:

Tibbie Croser · Post by **Tibbie Croser** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:06 am

It might be considered an early burgonet, but it's not a "straight-up burgonet." It's too short for a standard burg; the skull doesn't come down to the nape of the neck. Also, it lacks cheekplates. I've seen pictures of somewhat similar early burgonets on the Hermann-Historica site and possibly on the Thoog Flickr site. I'll have to look them up.

(Edited to add: I can't find the picture I thought I saw. I'd suggest also that this helmet isn't an evolution from the normal sallet but from the "archer's sallet" (celata?).)

Munz · Post by **Munz** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:46 pm

Trevor wrote:What, exactly, is it about this helmet to make you associate the term "sallet" with it?

It's got a brim and a short, segmented tail. Sallets have no brim, and their tails are usually pointed and/or elongated.

Sorry to nitpick here but I think it's a straight-up burgeonet. (With roping and shit.)

Except for the extremely short brim, the profile is far more of a sallet or celata than a burgonet. I don't think I have ever seen a burgonet with a segmented tail (don't confuse the gorget of a closed-burgonet for an articulated tail). And while it doesn't have a long tail like a high gothic German sallet it still is very closely related in it's construction. The lack of cheek flaps is a problem too.

To be honest it's not either one, really. But it seems to have borrowed elements from both types of helmets.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:21 pm

Munz wrote:Except for the extremely short brim, the profile is far more of a sallet or celata than a burgonet. I don't think I have ever seen a burgonet with a segmented tail (don't confuse the gorget of a closed-burgonet for an articulated tail). And while it doesn't have a long tail like a high gothic German sallet it still is very closely related in it's construction. The lack of cheek flaps is a problem too.

Just to be Ornery, I give you a Burgeonet with no cheekplates, and an articulated back.

Munz · Post by **Munz** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:50 pm

Well I did say that it kind of has elements of both helmets and it doesn't have the classic textbook profile of either one. That said, my main contribution to this thread was the location of an extant example of a helmet in this style rather than just a copy of a copy. Other than that, I guess I'm really not overly interested in arguing over what name to give it. (...it's like arguing over how to pronounce tomato, let's call the whole thing off...)

mattmaus · Post by **mattmaus** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:49 am

Munz wrote:it's like arguing over how to pronounce tomato, let's call the whole thing off

I usualy go something like "thermermlew" but I mumble a lot and annuciate poorly to the point of slurring a bit.

But yeah... I didn't ever intend to start a pit-nicking war, and I personaly don't have a clue what to call the thing, It's not a sallet, and if burgonet means "any helmet with a brim" then I guess it might be one of those, but it's not the picture I see in my head when someone uses the word.

I just like to make things.

Dietrich, Thanks so much for the kind words. I'm glad you're happy with it. I'm happy to be a part of your happiness.

RenJunkie · Post by **RenJunkie** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:22 am

Man, I wish you'd do hats like that (I mean really like that, it's the shizzNITE) but in a size about an inch bigger.

Hey, us big headed guys need affordable, yet fly lookin hat lovin too.

Get one of them equipped with a perf plate for fencing, and I'd be all set.

Well, not all set, but at least I'd look kinda cooler...lol

Pretty hat.

Christopher

Mike England · Post by **Mike England** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:08 am

I recall visiting the museums around Plymouth Mass back in the 80's there was a somewhat similar helm labelled as a "Lobstertail Burgeonet".

Tibbie Croser · Post by **Tibbie Croser** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:23 am

Irish's picture looks closest to the reproduction. Here's a somewhat similar period example from myarmoury.com: http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_burgonet.html. Look at the burgonet at top right.

Landsknecht Helmet Sallet/Burg hybrid.

Landsknecht Helmet Sallet/Burg hybrid.

dibs?