How thick should I go for stainless bars??

Vigmund Gunnarson · Post by **Vigmund Gunnarson** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:44 pm

As it suggests this is for my next two list-legal helmets (the intonation is on "list-legal" not on "two helms" :lol:

) . Those two are from 14ga stainless and now IÂ´ve come to the point of adding the bargrill. I was just wondering how thick I should go if I use stainless bars (I donÂ´t like the idea of mild steel bargrills attached to a stainless helm, though I know making a stainless bargrill look good will be a pain in the a**). The rules say
steel of no less than 3/16 inch or equivalent. Almost all helms IÂ´ve seen here in the Classifieds/Wants Ads Forum had 1/4 inch thick bars IIRC. Would 1/4 be the way to go?
Thanks in advance
Greetings Vigmund

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:01 pm

1/4" bar stock.

IIRC 1/4" bar stock will make the helm legal Society wide. Some Kingdoms don't allow 3/16" bar grills.

raito · Post by **raito** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:29 pm

Personally, I go 5/16" on all bars. Keeps them from bending longer, and doesn't seem to interfere with vision.

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:18 pm

If you use square you can go thinner then 1/4" as there's much more steel then in round.

I wouldn't advice square though it's a pain in the ass.

If you use 3/16 round you'll want to space them a little closer so they have a little more wiggle room before a 1" gap opens up.

Vigmund Gunnarson · Post by **Vigmund Gunnarson** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:19 pm

Wow 5/16" ? ThatÂ´s about 8mm just very little under that, yes? Does 1/4" get bent from use even if it is from stainless? If so, IÂ´ll go for 5/16"
Thanks for the quick answers :lol:

Vigmund Gunnarson · Post by **Vigmund Gunnarson** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:49 pm

Mad Matt wrote:If you use 3/16 round you'll want to space them a little closer so they have a little more wiggle room before a 1" gap opens up.

Oh well, I actually did not intend to want to go with 3/16" bar, I just tried to ask for this thickness because I have no idea of the rigidity of stainless yet.
Thanks though for the thing with square stock, because I also had that idea of going that way and that not of the looks but of the level of difficulty.
Now I know that it would not get easier that way :roll:

James Arlen Gillaspie · Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:20 pm

A typical stainless (I don't know what you have on hand in Bavaria; we tend to use some stuff we call '304' here) is much stronger than mild steel. A 1/4" 304 stainless bar is far beyond the actual strength equivalent required. Square bars are also much stronger than the same diameter round bars, so you can go thinner. I prefer square bars because they look so much better! Some marshals can be quite clueless, however.

Vigmund Gunnarson · Post by **Vigmund Gunnarson** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:50 pm

We have quite something on hand here in Bavaria

the sheet metal e.g. are from stainless -I just looked that up - of the 304 series (more exactly 304L) itÂ´s just not like in the US that you buy it by that name. The AISI names are somewhat like uncommon here for noobs like me :lol:

The names though are also used over here.
So I guess IÂ´ll have some bar that is slightly thicker than 1/4" (equivalent would be around 6.5mm) like 7mm which would get to be something around 9/32", I guess, IÂ´m on the safe side then :wink:

For the square bars I guess I have no choice: IÂ´ll have to try this on another helm that will come in the future :twisted:

But by the way: Do you have a pic of an example? I only know the one from Mad Matts site, the on from the low profile grill. That one looks nice yeah, but I... desire... more :lol:

So IÂ´ll be a good boy and ask for it nicely and say: please :wink:

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:12 pm

9/16 is WAY too thick. 1/4" or 6.35mm

If it's sold in even MM increments go with 6 it will be plenty.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:47 am

Matt, that was 9/32". I do believe they can get whole-mm and .5-mm increments just everywhere and all the time. One must admit such a smallness of increment should suit practically any ordinarily conceivable job.

Vigmund, I think with a little digging we can come up with some pics of our more artistic bargrills; I know we've shown and admired them here in the past. (Now who remembers a term to search on?!)

raito · Post by **raito** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:19 am

Vigmund Gunnarson wrote:Wow 5/16" ? ThatÂ´s about 8mm just very little under that, yes? Does 1/4" get bent from use even if it is from stainless? If so, IÂ´ll go for 5/16"
Thanks for the quick answers

Yes, eventually, even for stainless. I should also mention that I put them on 1" centers.

Vermin · Post by **Vermin** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:07 am

Yes, square can be a pain in the butt.
However, with square, a bit of dremelwork can make the welds just disappear and make it look like it's one solid piece, because you're going "flat to flat" and you can make some seriously smooth transitions between the bars.

Yup, it takes time, but the results are worth it in the end.

Vigmund Gunnarson · Post by **Vigmund Gunnarson** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:42 pm

Mad Matt wrote:9/16 is WAY too thick. 1/4" or 6.35mm

If it's sold in even MM increments go with 6 it will be plenty.

Oh ok thatÂ´s actually rather complaisant, because today I gave the metal distribution shop a call about the 7mm bars and they told me those would not be on hand. But they do have 6mm there, so I guess IÂ´ll have some

. It should also be a little cheaper than the 7mm stock, but I donÂ´t think thereÂ´s much of a difference :lol:

Talking about about those .5mm-increments: they do have that increments, but only with one kind of their stainless and -as expected- most not on hand ... Most of their stuff is sold by 2mm increments, I guess because most of the time it is not needed to be that precise. For the precise stuff they can also order

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:12 pm

Oops I read the 9/32 wrong.

6mill is plenty though.

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:21 pm

6mm square stock or round stock is pretty common in Switzerland so I assume it is available in Bavaria. If you know the DIN spec for the grade of stainless I can tell you how much stronger it is or isn't then mild steel.

Most people who complain about bars bending also have very large spans between supports. Often >5 inches (~125mm) with only a single center support. I personally would only want 1/4" (6mm) bar grill if the supports are less then 4" (100mm) apart and you could trim about 1mm in diameter for about 20mm less between supports. SCA reg do allow bars as small as 1/8" (~3mm) but the supports have to be less then 2" (~50mm apart). There are people who cut very intricate visors out of 1/8" plate but you will find that there is rarely more then 1" (~25mm) between supports).

Larger bars is a less time consuming way then adding supports but I think it is less attractive too.

Sean

Vigmund Gunnarson · Post by **Vigmund Gunnarson** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:07 pm

Sean Powell wrote: If you know the DIN spec for the grade of stainless I can tell you how much stronger it is or isn't then mild steel.

Pfuh... I have no idea what hey will sell me. Have you got you got a spec you could advice to me?

I personally would only want 1/4" (6mm) bar grill if the supports are less then 4" (100mm) apart and you could trim about 1mm in diameter for about 20mm less between supports.

Cool! ThatÂ´s one rule I definatly will remember. I will take that in account espacially for the Burgonet that is in progress :wink:

Thank you very much.

Greetings Vigmund

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:23 pm

Vigmund Gunnarson wrote:
I personally would only want 1/4" (6mm) bar grill if the supports are less then 4" (100mm) apart and you could trim about 1mm in diameter for about 20mm less between supports.

Cool! ThatÂ´s one rule I definatly will remember. I will take that in account espacially for the Burgonet that is in progress Thank you very much.

Greetings Vigmund

My PERSONAL rule. Do not take it as gospel. (And there are very few people out there who work in anything other then 1/4" round stock.)

Sean

white mountain armoury · Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:01 pm

I use 1/4 in in all my grills and have not had an issue with bending.
I tend to not span large areas without support.

bhaiduk · Post by **bhaiduk** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:52 pm

Do you guys used hot or cold rolled steel to make a bargrill?

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:12 am

Coldrolled starts off a little stiffer, because it's been cold-worked in one more processing step. Hotrolled round stock bends easier. You can stiffen it if you want to bang on all of it with a hammer for a while, or just use 1/16" more diameter. And of course if you have a torch or forge, there's using Kasenit.

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:39 am

bhaiduk wrote:Do you guys used hot or cold rolled steel to make a bargrill?

Quite typicly 'Cold Drawn' not colled rolled or hot rolled. I don't believe that there is a 'Hot Drawn' option for round stock. Some of the higher carbon and tool steels are available annealed instead but for 95% of what the SCA does cold drawn 1/4" round stock is the workhorse for production.

Sean

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:02 pm

The differences between the hardness of cold and hot rolled for what we do is so minimal it should be ignored. The real difference between cold and hot is that cold has tighter tolerances so 1/4" stock will be closer on average in cold then hot.

Also most of the time you're not getting cold anyway. You go ask for cold and they'll give you hot rolled pickled and oiled.