transitional armor

[Heath B fraychef]

ok, so ive heard the term transitional armor thrown around a bit but in reaity i find myself wondering exactly what are people talking aboutwas there a specific time frame for "transitional armor " or is it just a term for armor in between specific known periods?
any enlightenment would be great.

[I. Stewart]

In my understanding....

Transitional refers to armour of the 14th century (give or take some), during the transition from mail to plate as the primary defense. Those harnesses that use mail combined with some plate defenses.

[Eamonn MacCampbell]

In my understanding....

Transitional refers to armour of the 14th century (give or take some), during the transition from mail to plate as the primary defense. Those harnesses that use mail combined with some plate defenses.

As to my understanding of the term...You are correct in what you say....Two gold stars for you...

[David S]

Keep in mind, though, that a non-armor enthusiast will not consider the term "transitional" to have any particular meaning for the 14th century. I unwittingly used the term with my Medieval Historian friend, and he had no idea what I was talking about.

[I. Stewart]

I've noticed lately that the term 'transitional' isn't used as much as it used to be. It was very common when I first found the Archive.

[Andrew Young]

It means several things.

First it does refer to the evolution from mail to plate. But it begins earlier than 1300 and lasts longer than 1400, which is more of a time frame of convenience.

We start to see warriors adding scynbalds (shin) and foot protection as early as the 1230s (possibly earlier) as well as what may be very early coats of plates. (remember that a mounted warriors foot is always in closer proximity to danger than his upper body). By the 1270s the concept of a coat of plates would not have been at all unusual. There seems to be a period in the middle of the 13th century in which padded armour is seen as a viable alternative to hard armour.

Certainly by the 1340s, many knights would have had additional harder defenses such as metal, leather, horn, or bone plates on much of their bodies.

By the 1370s (and arguably as early as the mid 1360s in Italy) the average knight in western europe was largely covered in a white harness, or full plate made of solid plates.

Now the wrench in the gears comes when we look at much of eastern Europe where full plate seems to have coincided, but the overall form such as a breastplate was made in multiple segmented pieces (the best example, albeit Italian is the Churbourg 9 piece cuirass which has many hallmarks of eastern european armour (and is probably over replicated by western living history groups, etc) And this trend of using multiple pieces for cuirasses, cuisses and even helmets seems to last well into the 1420s, even in parts of Germany as well.

So really I view it as a period beginning in the 1230s and lasting until the 1420s or so. By that part most of Europe has caught up and full plate was now starting to diverge from the international style into what we now call italian, german, etc.

[Sir Victor]

Of the transitional harnesses I've seen, there is either a suede-covered BP (with armour plates beneath) or a churberg BP with chain mail hanging behind and below the BP.

Is there any instances of a churberg BP that had plates hanging beneath?
(a fauld/tasset thing)

First image with suede covered BP


second image of churberg BP with chainmail (BP looks a little long, should be just below rib-cage, right?)
[img]http://www.knightsofthenorth.ca/armour/armour1.jpg[/img]

[William of Stonebridge]

Globose breastplates did have faulds at times. However, I have not seen any evidence of vertical plates used in history like those on the velvet covered Bashford Dean creation from the Metropolitan museum that you had posted above. All of the pictures of faulds for globose breastplates that I have seen have always had horizontal lames.


Sir Thomas Braunstone (d.1401)


Pistoia Altarpeice

[Sir Victor]

Well, I have a Churberg (7-piece I think it is.), so I was looking at options instead of, or in addition to the chainmail skirt.

[Russ Mitchell]

Eastern Europe uses rigid and semi-rigid armors much earlier, for various reasons... transitional, imho, marks the gradual shift away from flexible armors and into the widespread adoption of rigid ones.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Keep in mind, though, that a non-armor enthusiast will not consider the term "transitional" to have any particular meaning for the 14th century. I unwittingly used the term with my Medieval Historian friend, and he had no idea what I was talking about.

In a thousand years, would a 20thC historian have any idea what a sunglasses enthusiast was talking about if he was referring to a transitional period where sunglasses went from merely dark to offering UV protection?

If he was a sunglasses geek, probably.

[Karl Helweg]

Transitional plate is also roughly what D&D gamers referred to as "plate-mail."

Sorry, my inner gamer had to put that out.

The term isn't used as much these days as fighters' interest become more specialized within what all used to just be "transitional" and fewer D&D players run up at demos and point at the guy in "plate-mail!"

(What do the ren-faire people point and say now????)

[es02]

Well, I have a Churberg (7-piece I think it is.), so I was looking at options instead of, or in addition to the chainmail skirt.

If your going to wear Churburg take my advice, don't wear a maille skirt, wear a full shirt. Having taken shots that have missed the plates on my Churburg breastplate... Some of them have taken months to heal.

[d-farrell2]

Globose breastplates did have faulds at times. However, I have not seen any evidence of vertical plates used in history like those on the velvet covered Bashford Dean creation from the Metropolitan museum that you had posted above. All of the pictures of faulds for globose breastplates that I have seen have always had horizontal lames.

There is something that could be interpreted as a corrizzina with vertical faulds(like the Dean piece) in the Pistoia Altarpiece. As I recall, it is on someone who is clearly not fully armored (i.e. a foot-soldier) but that is basically the only evidence of such a thing that I have seen (so it is pretty weak).

So, to be safe, it is generally accepted that hoop faulds were the only form of faulds from about the 1350s onward. They were definitely the dominant form. And they certainly do make moving and sitting much easier.

[Andrew Young]

Transitional plate is also roughly what D&D gamers referred to as "plate-mail."

Sorry, my inner gamer had to put that out.

The term isn't used as much these days as fighters' interest become more specialized within what all used to just be "transitional" and fewer D&D players run up at demos and point at the guy in "plate-mail!"

(What do the ren-faire people point and say now????)

Unless I am mistaken... when did transitional become a no-no? I use the term a lot, as it makes sense. This period is a transitional from mail to plate, but the mid to late 14th century also largely coincides with the end of the medieval period in many ways. The year 1400 is roughly when complete plate is generally prevalent. And in many ways the period after 1400 century is the first real "wide spread" renaissance century for most of western Europe as well.

I like transitional from an armour standpoint. It makes sense.

[Andrew Young]

There are loads of problems with this cuirass. Its based Bashford dean cuirass that was cobbled together with several different pieces.

Ie, its not a reliably accurate reconstruction:

[Sir Victor]

If your going to wear Churburg take my advice, don't wear a maille skirt, wear a full shirt. Having taken shots that have missed the plates on my Churburg breastplate... Some of them have taken months to heal.

At 42 years old, everything seems to take months to heal .

I will be wearing a 'revival.us' (zuparella) gambeson/arming cote, so this should help pad the blows. Nevertheless, I am leaning on a full chainmail hauberk underneath. Considering that I would need a chainmail skirt and voiders and chainmail on the upper back, then I just assume go ahead and get the full hauberk. I already have a chainmail shirt which I have nearly outgrown, so I'll make it a tad larger. Just wish it was rivetted though.

...just thought some vertical plates, backed/edged in leather might look good. don't want it to look odd though, so I might just go with the chainmail only idea for now.

[Mac]

The history of armor has been one transition after another. Every period was a transition to the next. Every armorer's latest work; a transition from what he used to make to what he will make next year.

Waist lines changed. Helmet skulls changed. Skirts got longer, and then shorter again. Decoration changed. There was a constant state of flux.

Elements of style faded in, had a hay-day, and then faded out.

I've never much liked the rigidity of labels like "The Transitional Period", "The Gothic Period" or "The Maximilian Period". They sound too much like the sort of scholarship which gave us "The Bronze Age", "The Age of Reptiles" and "Age of Enlightenment". They impose artificial boundaries on multidimensional continua.

They're only useful if you realize that they are artificial. As soon as you begin to define their edges, they burst like soap bubbles.

(and speaking of soap; I shall step down off my box now)

Mac

[Andrew Young]

The history of armor has been one transition after another. Every period was a transition to the next. Every armorer's latest work; a transition from what he used to make to what he will make next year.

Waist lines changed. Helmet skulls changed. Skirts got longer, and then shorter again. Decoration changed. There was a constant state of flux.

Elements of style faded in, had a hay-day, and then faded out.

I've never much liked the rigidity of labels like "The Transitional Period", "The Gothic Period" or "The Maximilian Period". They sound too much like the sort of scholarship which gave us "The Bronze Age", "The Age of Reptiles" and "Age of Enlightenment". They impose artificial boundaries on multidimensional continua.

They're only useful if you realize that they are artificial. As soon as you begin to define their edges, they burst like soap bubbles.

(and speaking of soap; I shall step down off my box now)

Mac

I completely agree Mac that arbitrary dating fails to account for the ebb and flow of reality, particularly with regard to the intentional acceptance vis-a-vis subtle acceptance of change.

This topic remind of the term Middle Ages. Its a convenient word for us to use in the west, yet it doesnt apply when dealing with the east, as in Asia. Yet with western inroads, back then and now, that term begins to creep in and is somehow reconciled as part of "their" history also....so long as western Europeans stepped inside the modern borders of, say China during the 13th century or whatever....or vice versa if Mongels rode amidst these great lands.

I do not like the term gothic as a geographically based period, probably more on the grounds that contemporary italians also create harnesses that somehow manage to look suspiciously gothic as well.

But I do think the term transitional, in terms of armour fundamentals, makes sense...we do see a fairly distinct shift from mail to plate occurring between the latter 1200s and early 1400s...arguably about a 130 year period. In my mind, its during that transitional century there are also a great number of ideas that germinate but ultimately blossom during the 1400; ideas and movements that are so profound that I think most Europeans would have been aware of them. And in some measure, they are. Things like post plague "morbid-necromancy" that shifts the authority of major institutions (questioning roles)....things like the printing press (spreading ideas) ....things like Ottoman advancement and Portuguese colonialism in the 1450s (pushing back boundaries and fear)...and things like battle of pavia (is it?) that turn the knightly class on its side, if not head.

I guess what Im saying is that when I think of the term transitional, Im not thinking of it from a purely aesthetic point of view (mail to plate). Im viewing it as a period of widespread social upheaval and applied technological innovation that, in large measure, add growing momentum to the arms race, thus begetting a significant transitional period. And during this time there is a lot of experimentation with various materials and methods to protect the 'warrior.'


.

[Talbot]

Instead of saying the "transitional period," which is my main area of reasearch, I say "the period of the transition from mail to plate." I describe it rather than name it. I think it is an important distinction (at least for me.) I define it as roughly 1250-1430 for my research efforts.

[Andrew Young]

Instead of saying the "transitional period," which is my main area of reasearch, I say "the period of the transition from mail to plate." I describe it rather than name it. I think it is an important distinction (at least for me.) I define it as roughly 1250-1430 for my research efforts.

"ah.....the period of transition you seek"

[img]http://www.cnn.com/EVENTS/1997/star.wars.anniversary/where.are.they/yoda.lg.jpg[/img]








(sorry Doug, just messin' with ya )

[Karl Helweg]

I am sorry, I did not mean to imply that "transitional" was a no-no term just that I do not hear it used much in recent years. If I used it up here I would get trout-looks from most fighters; it is locally fashionable to refer to armour by century then nationality such as "15th century Italian."

Transitional plate is also roughly what D&D gamers referred to as "plate-mail."

Sorry, my inner gamer had to put that out.

The term isn't used as much these days as fighters' interest become more specialized within what all used to just be "transitional" and fewer D&D players run up at demos and point at the guy in "plate-mail!"

(What do the ren-faire people point and say now????)

Unless I am mistaken... when did transitional become a no-no? I use the term a lot, as it makes sense. This period is a transitional from mail to plate, but the mid to late 14th century also largely coincides with the end of the medieval period in many ways. The year 1400 is roughly when complete plate is generally prevalent. And in many ways the period after 1400 century is the first real "wide spread" renaissance century for most of western Europe as well.

I like transitional from an armour standpoint. It makes sense.

[Konstantin the Red]

Once I've defined the term well enough to enlighten a specific audience, I use transitional the way it was once popularly used: 14th-c. western European armor. The century opened with armor being mail hauberk and helm, with the beginnings of added reenforcements, and closed with well-nigh complete harness of plate. The alwyte harness was only a decade or two away.