Looking for 14th cen. armoured effigy

Mongotzu · Post by **Mongotzu** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:21 pm

Wotcher

I looking for a (as I recall) late 14th cen figure/statue,effigy,illumination of a guy ina a bacinet (rasing his visor with one hand) hand a half in other and, jupon, plate leg harness and sabtons. At his feet is a dragon/wyrm/thingy and his about to smoke it with his upraised hand and half. Possibly St. George and the Dragon..

Anyone have a idea of the one I'm badly describing.

Mike
(I have it in a book but can I find the book...noooooo grumpsigh)

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:15 pm

I can see the very guy from your description... not that I have the image or the identity, zounds and blast it! Standing, bending a little at the waist, legs very straight and feet well apart.

This ain't the one, but it's a nice 15th-c. George:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:StGeorg.jpg

Another that isn't, but may merit another look at some point. From somewhere in Windsor Castle:

http://www.royalstgeorgessocietyhalifax.org/blog.aspx

Well, I give up.

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:29 pm

I think I know the one- e-mail sent with pic.

Cet

Mongotzu · Post by **Mongotzu** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:52 pm

Thanks all, especially Cet! That the one I'm looking for....Wow! now that I've seen it color what a cool effigy (Cet could you post it to this...umm what are we on a board or thread or what is this) I've only seen it books in black and white.

Mike

Baron Conal · Post by **Baron Conal** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:34 am

Mongotzu wrote:Thanks all, especially Cet! That the one I'm looking for....Wow! now that I've seen it color what a cool effigy (Cet could you post it to this...umm what are we on a board or thread or what is this) I've only seen it books in black and white.

Mike

Now you have to share with everyone.....

Post the picture.

Mongotzu · Post by **Mongotzu** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:17 pm

ummm err ahh...I'm a total Luddite. I have zero rating of "clue" on how to do this.

mike

Baron Conal · Post by **Baron Conal** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:37 am

Mongotzu wrote:ummm err ahh...I'm a total Luddite. I have zero rating of "clue" on how to do this.

mike

email me the picture ( baonconal@yahoo.com )
and I'll post it.

Lorenz De Thornham · Post by **Lorenz De Thornham** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:19 pm

Hope this works, is this the one?

Mongotzu · Post by **Mongotzu** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:04 am

Yuppers. Thanks alot!!

.....damn...now I want one (Jupon thingy)....

michael

Mongotzu · Post by **Mongotzu** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:10 am

Question:

Anyone have an idea what the belt behind the plaque belt that runs diagonally ove the hip is for? (Sword belt?)

Also correct me if I'm wrong: the three "points" around the aventail. To keep the avential form flopping up?

michael

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:25 am

Mongotzu wrote:Anyone have an idea what the belt behind the plaque belt that runs diagonally ove the hip is for? (Sword belt?)

Also correct me if I'm wrong: the three "points" around the aventail. To keep the aventail form flopping up?

michael

Probably is a sword belt, as the cingulum militaire/plaque belt quit being a sword belt early on. For a longer period, it could be found carrying the dagger in any of several arrangements.

Yep, that's what those points are for, particularly for during lance-play. There might be some more in the back, though you personally may reject that option as being too hard to do by yourself. Those guys had servants and squires.

Mongotzu wrote:.....damn...now I want one (Jupon thingy)....

It's a Lentner. Very Walter von Hohenklingen-y. Also not seen enough even among the Germans of the Fourteenth-Century Mafia. Make the skirts of it just that conical, too, not with curved seams. Male hips don't need that curvature and it tends to boof the skirts funny if it's present.

There's a pattern for it in TOMAR.

Lorenz De Thornham · Post by **Lorenz De Thornham** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:36 am

Looks like he has a lance rest poking through it too, anybody have a photo face on so we can see the visor etc?

Mongotzu · Post by **Mongotzu** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:41 pm

Thanks all for the additions!

Question: any know or have a idea why this one appears to button to a point then lace at the waist. Where as Walter von Hoofencrotchen's (Hohenklingen) look like it buttons up. the rest running under his brast plate.

michael

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:43 am

We see this kind of thing -- in buttons -- on the Charles de Blois cotehardie too, as well as artwork detailed enough to show the fastenings -- which show us buttons and lacing, sometimes mixed, sometimes one or the other. It all seems to have to do with having enough room for one or the other fastener -- buttons, under a globose breast, which has a little space inside it. But get down to the hip armor, and it's going to lie right on the skirting. At the least, they didn't want their mail faulds all lumpy; ergo: nice flat lacing-up, no lumps, no snagging the fauld either.

The CdB cotehardie has round buttons down the chest, with the exception of the very top button at the neck, which is flat. It changes at the waist: in the skirts, the buttons are flat. This has been interpreted, though probably incorrectly in this particular garment's case, as a feature to convenience the wearing of 14th-c. armor. In the CdB's case, it is probably done in imitation of an armyng-cote, and hence a military-style feature carried over into the civil dress of a military aristocrat. Plausible, isn't it?

Theodore · Post by **Theodore** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:19 am

One suggestion I've heard is that the waist down portion is holding the weight of the leg armor that is pointed to it. In order to hold that weight it must be tight, so it is laced. But if you lace it all the way up, the weight gets transfered to the shoulders and also affects upper body movement when fighting.

Dan · Post by **Dan** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:05 pm

I find that picture pretty fascinating.

Do you have any information about where it is? when it dates from etc?

Cheers,
Dan

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:39 pm

Konstantin the Red wrote:
It's a Lentner. Very Walter von Hohenklingen-y. Also not seen enough even among the Germans of the Fourteenth-Century Mafia.

Isn't a "lentner" just a German word for the same kind of over-armour garment we'd also call a jupon? This has been an open question for me for a while. Granted, I don't have my sources in front of me right now to review and answer my own question, but I seem to recall reading a cogent analysis (somewhere :?:

) stating that the word 'lentner' is roughly equivalent to 'jupon', if one takes one's cues from context in the period texts. It makes sense to call it a 'lentner' if the sculpture is German, but it should probably also be pointed out that if it were French, we'd probably be calling it a 'jupon'. The two terms do not appear to represent differing garments from the time period; just differing languages.

If someone has more information, I'd love to learn more about it.

-Tasha

^ · Post by ^ » Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:05 pm

http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/fr00215a12a.jpg
http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/fr00215a13a.jpg