Need advice

Pietro di Trento · Post by **Pietro di Trento** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:55 pm

This is my armor kit I know It needs a lot of improvement but I was wondering what kind of persona I can be with this set up I want to go Anglo-Irish around the 14th century I have a slat back Spangen from Otto's and a chainmail hauberk I was just too lazy to wear it that day I have a gorget and demi just in case anyone is wondering

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:12 pm

Well, honestly, you have there a prime SCA rig.

You have a mix n match of different time period.

The spangenhelm (I assume it is this one) [img]http://www.ottosarmoury.com/specialty10.jpg[/img]

Is closer to 800-900A.D.

Your CoP is more along the lines of 1000s - early 1300s.

Your arms and legs are early to mid 1300s

So, if you are wanting to go with 14th century I would advise to go early 14th.

Keep your Coat of Plates, arms, legs, and chainmail.

Replace your spangen helm with a kettle hat, greathelm, or Bascinet

Replace your tunic with a padded gambeson or aketon. You could also go with a cottehardie probably.

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:22 pm

I'll start the ball rolling...

"Around the 14th century" is a very wide span to cover, 100+/- years. Fashions and style changed considerably between 1301 and 1400. If you keep the mail and coat of plates, you're probably somewhere before 1370. A spangenhelm is out the window, and should be rplaced with a bascinet. For the Pale, mail would likely have been the norm w/o the CoP for the first half of the century.

There are lots of people on the Archive who are more knowledgable than I am. Most of them will offer you plenty of help if you can narrow your timeframe to a thirty-year window.

Pietro di Trento · Post by **Pietro di Trento** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:24 pm

Thank you!! So it really isn't that bad right?

Late 13th early 14th is exactly what I was going for I guess I should have been a lil more specific with that. I know u said mid but my persona isn't very wealthy (that much I have figured out) so his armour may be slightly outta fashion or handed down which is where the spangen was supposed to come into play as a hand me down but that is a huge difference in time.

Angusm0628 · Post by **Angusm0628** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:24 pm

Tunic needs to go, Gambeson in it's place.
Maille is a definite must.
Lose the Spangen...

In short "What they said"

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:48 am

Let's face it, entry-level fixed-grill bascinets aren't frightfully expensive any more, particularly if you make your own camail, under which your safety gorget can hide. Early-fourteenth bascinets tended to resemble John D'Aubernoun's or John de Creke's brasses more than anything in the Churburg Armory or Walter von Hohenklingen, who are both latter-day. Maybe Miles Stapleton though. Try Hugh Despenser, died 1349 -- a low, practically round bascinet with tunnel vervelles. Tunnel vervelles as opposed to post vervelles (see the Black Prince's effigy, where they are displayed to advantage) indicate an early decade in the century. You get props for attention to detail. See also Sir Thomas Cheyne, stretching a bit having died in 1368, though his armor as depicted may be of an earlier decade. This is always a consideration with funerary brasses or effigies.

In general, if you go with a bascinet, pick a mid-point or even a hardly-any-point in preference to a high- or back-point. Those rakish bascinets were the wrong end of the century for your period of interest. Most of the entry-level/fixed grill bascinets run to low- or mid-point anyway.

So, yeah, typical AA advice to the guy with period-scrambled armor: spend some money on this or on that.

A replacement gambeson could and would look like a quilted edition of a cotehardie. It will probably fasten by lacing it shut, as the fasteners need to be both strong and very numerous to take the load imposed by armor, particularly any armor pointed onto an armyng-cote. It should be snug about the waist, such that it takes a little effort to insert your bladed fingers in there with you inside, and somewhat freer about the shoulders and upper arms -- your hand can get inside there without effort. Below the elbows, the sleeves should be fitted tight again. From the natural waist down -- belly button level that is -- your cote can flare out in a conical form -- straight seams there; you don't need curves in the seams. Not unless you come equipped with a giant aft.

This garment is generally made pretty simply in what's called "made in quarters." For both the front and the back but particularly the front since it opens, there is a quarter for the left torso and the right torso, and then from the waist down, left hip and right hip, for four quarters. As you can imagine, it's easy to see how they'd start doing particolor clothing made this way. The torso bits join by curved seams, giving a big-chested look, while the hip bits are straight seamed and end up a narrow cone shape suited to the male hips.

Pietro di Trento · Post by **Pietro di Trento** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:52 pm

I got me a bascinet Just wanted to thank you all for the advice.

Vladimir · Post by **Vladimir** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:24 pm

The helmet and maille add a heck of a lot to the look already.

Put on your haberk and pick up a pair of simple spaulders and it would look cool.

Pietro di Trento · Post by **Pietro di Trento** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:40 pm

Thank you I have the spaulders I just have to attach them I will get a picture of me in the hauberk this coming weekend.

Bob H · Post by **Bob H** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:14 pm

Much better! Note - the coat of plates usually goes over the gambeson, and under the surcoat. The 'C.o.P. on the outside' is more a mid 13thC thing. You can save your tunic for off the field, the layer order is 1. gambeson, 2. COP, 3. surcoat. You could make an argument for a shirt under all of it, but later documentation shows that the gambeson is worn against the skin. It breathes/wicks better that way, anyway.

Pietro di Trento · Post by **Pietro di Trento** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:44 am

The gambeson is the only thing I am missing now.

deflagratio · Post by **deflagratio** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:02 pm

Bob H wrote:Much better! Note - the coat of plates usually goes over the gambeson, and under the surcoat. The 'C.o.P. on the outside' is more a mid 13thC thing. You can save your tunic for off the field, the layer order is 1. gambeson, 2. COP, 3. surcoat. You could make an argument for a shirt under all of it, but later documentation shows that the gambeson is worn against the skin. It breathes/wicks better that way, anyway.

Thread highjack. Do you have this documentation available. I'm just really interested in this.

Pietro di Trento · Post by **Pietro di Trento** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:41 pm

That's not a hijack glad u mentioned it documentation is always good

Jestyr · Post by **Jestyr** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:44 pm

Why not make a jupon instead?

Duke Uther · Post by **Duke Uther** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:34 pm

InsaneIrish wrote:Well, honestly, you have there a prime SCA rig.

You have a mix n match of different time period.

The spangenhelm (I assume it is this one) [img]http://www.ottosarmoury.com/specialty10.jpg[/img]

Is closer to 800-900A.D.

Your CoP is more along the lines of 1000s - early 1300s.

Your arms and legs are early to mid 1300s

So, if you are wanting to go with 14th century I would advise to go early 14th.

Keep your Coat of Plates, arms, legs, and chainmail.

Replace your spangen helm with a kettle hat, greathelm, or Bascinet

Replace your tunic with a padded gambeson or aketon. You could also go with a cottehardie probably.

Had question on the COP time line comment, what you meant for time frame? Iâ€™ve not found much earlier than 1300. I am interested if you know of others, Visby being the classic that is used or ST Maurice 1250
thx
Uther

Blaine de Navarre · Post by **Blaine de Navarre** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:14 pm

Duke Uther wrote:Had question on the COP time line comment, what you meant for time frame? Iâ€™ve not found much earlier than 1300. I am interested if you know of others, Visby being the classic that is used or ST Maurice 1250

The other earliest documentable CoP is the sleeping guard at the Holy Sepulchre, which is roughly contemporary with the St Maurice.

Leather "cuiries" go back to some time in the 12th C, and there is one poetic account of King Richard surviving a full-on jousting thrust to the chest because of a "plate of hardened iron" worn under his mail. One can conjecture that bits of plate over particularly vital areas began being riveted onto cuiries about this time (tail end of the 12th C) and evolved into what we'd recognize as CoPs, trickling down from the very high end (King Richard and William Marshal were the Shaq and Jordan of the late 12th C tournament circuit) to more common use.

Pietro di Trento · Post by **Pietro di Trento** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:14 pm

Just a quick update, I wouuld appreciate anymore advice I wanted to go earlier 14th c. but seems I am more mid now.

audax · Post by **audax** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:28 pm

Greaves or shynbalds. A surcote. Simple soupcan type knees. Proper shoes or cover the mundanity. Blacken the bargrill.

Pietro di Trento · Post by **Pietro di Trento** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:39 pm

How can I blacken the bar grill without painting it?

Cian of Storvik · Post by **Cian of Storvik** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:52 pm

Warm it up with a hand held map gas torch. Spritz with WD-40 and then hit it with a torch again.
-Cian

audax · Post by **audax** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:52 pm

jmperez wrote:How can I blacken the bar grill without painting it?

What's wrong with painting it? That's how I blacken mine.

I suppose you could use cold gunblue.

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:32 pm

jmperez wrote:Just a quick update, I wouuld appreciate anymore advice I wanted to go earlier 14th c. but seems I am more mid now.

If you really want to go earlier, you can. First, a long surcoat will go a long way. Next, you need to get long sleeves on that hauberk. I would also fill the "riding split" with expansion rings to allow the mail to flair instead of gap. Audax is correct on the legs--greaves or schynbalds beneath "soup can" poleyns. Gamboised cuisses are good. I would prefer a more centrally-pointed bascinet as well, but the money's been spent.

Pietro di Trento · Post by **Pietro di Trento** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:50 pm

audax wrote:
jmperez wrote:How can I blacken the bar grill without painting it?

What's wrong with painting it? That's how I blacken mine.

I suppose you could use cold gunblue.

Nothing at all just wondering what my other options were.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:55 pm

What Ernst means with the slits is to add right triangles of plain-weave mail, or expansion triangles, to either edge of the slit. Height of triangle zipped onto the edges, hypotenuses to the centerline. Though I am not quite sure I'm seeing an inverted-V gapping here.

Your kit is definitely looking more united in time. A lot of what else you might do would be on the level of accessorizing in c. 1350s style, trying for whatever telling little details you may, that bellow mid-fourteenth as opposed to late or very early.

audax · Post by **audax** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:26 pm

jmperez wrote:
audax wrote:
jmperez wrote:How can I blacken the bar grill without painting it?

What's wrong with painting it? That's how I blacken mine.

I suppose you could use cold gunblue.

Nothing at all just wondering what my other options were.

Okay. Just thought you had some crazy prejudice against black paint. :wink:

Pietro di Trento · Post by **Pietro di Trento** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:20 pm

Nope not me. I wound up blackening the spangen i had black with spray paint.

I would not want to offend the Dark Overlord Chick of the universe :wink:

audax · Post by **audax** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 10:01 pm

jmperez wrote:Nope not me. I wound up blackening the spangen i had black with spray paint.

I would not want to offend the Dark Overlord Chick of the universe

No, indeed. I have hordes of minions.

Somewhere...I have to look uinder the fridge now.

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:01 am

OMG, what an improvement. Awesome to see! I think you need to concentrate on your legs -- start wearing braies and hosen, not pants. Also, get real turnshoe boots to fight in (put orthotics in them to help with all the weight on you). That will help bring it all together in a very real way.

Tomburr · Post by **Tomburr** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:03 am

Yeah, go with hosen and turn shoes. It'll make a huge difference, and really take your kit up a notch in historical accuracy and appearance.

The bascinet was a great improvement. I think its really awesome that you're taking the advice of the old hands around here and showing your progress. At this rate, you'll have a very respectable kit in no time.

Keep us updated!

Pietro di Trento · Post by **Pietro di Trento** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:03 pm

Tomburr wrote:Yeah, go with hosen and turn shoes. It'll make a huge difference, and really take your kit up a notch in historical accuracy and appearance.

The bascinet was a great improvement. I think its really awesome that you're taking the advice of the old hands around here and showing your progress. At this rate, you'll have a very respectable kit in no time.

Keep us updated!

Thank you all for the advice and the encouragement, It's gonna take time for the hosen and turns shoes but i will get them and keep you all updated as i progress.

Pietro di Trento · Post by **Pietro di Trento** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:53 am

Just an update finally attached the spaulders

Pietro di Trento · Post by **Pietro di Trento** » Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:51 pm

I made some changes to my kit I change my Elbow and knees from articulated to single cops added splinted greaves. I would like to thank Josh W for his help. I need to get rid of the modern boots and still need an arming coat but I am finally satisfied. I also made a plaque belt

Qwertypolk · Post by **Qwertypolk** » Sat Feb 27, 2010 11:25 pm

A HUGE improvement! Well done!

Angusm0628 · Post by **Angusm0628** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:34 am

Looking Good..... light years ahead of your appearance from the opening pic you posted....

Jestyr · Post by **Jestyr** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:12 am

Very nice job. As a previous poster mentioned, you are now light years ahead of where you were.