camail for my bascinet

Morlahn Hobbs · Post by **Morlahn Hobbs** » Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:58 am

Greetings all,

Before Pennsic XXIX, I purchased a lovely bascinet from White Mountain Armoury (I receive loads of compliments each time I put it on - great work *pic from website below*). I picked it up at War, so during the first week I stitched up a suede camail, and used a thick piece of strap leather with holes punched for the vervelles, then ran a brass piece of wire through the vervelles to complete it. That worked out quite well. However, I would like to complete the helm by adding a maille camail, as was intended.

First, I have seen bascinets whose vervelles do not go up the sides of the helm (vertically along the side of the face) and the camails on those helms simply round the bottom. Mine do go up the sides (which I assume is the proper way.) So, for some reason it's hard for me to imagine how the rings will look, or rather, how they will 'go'? If my face is off (either pig or bargrille, I have both) I'm trying to imagine what the maille will cover . . . does it slope down toward my chin, rounding itself between my lower lip and the bottom of my chin? I've never held a bascinet with a maille camail in my hands, so I cannot imagine how it will look!?!

Second, other than waxed leather I made as a newbie, I do not dabble too much in armouring. (still working on being more than a mediocre fighter) If I were to commission a camail from someone, would they need my helm? The vervelles are one inch apart, and it seems that a camail built in that fashion could be standard. What type of rings should I request for a camail? Do any of you have time? lol.

<--photo courtesy of White Mountain Armoury LLC-->
<IMG SRC="http://www.thegreenman.net/wma/basc4.jpg" HEIGHT=197 WIDTH=225>

Any comments would be greatly appreciated. I've read all the other posts on the subject, but everyone else must know the answer to this question already. hehe.

Morlahn Hobbs

[This message has been edited by Morlahn Hobbs (edited 01-05-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Morlahn Hobbs (edited 01-05-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Morlahn Hobbs (edited 01-05-2001).]

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Fri Jan 05, 2001 11:28 am

Your aventail should cover your chin, riding in an arc just below your lower lip.

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Fri Jan 05, 2001 11:34 am

Well this is a pretty easy question.

I'd recommend that you make the camail (aventail is the same thing just different language) so that it just frames your face a little closer then the actual helmet does. Basically it's just a little maille at the sides and as it gets to the bottom of the helm it gets a little bit wider. Then under the chin it goes straight across. Think of it like a coif but with a helmet instead of maille covering most of your head.

You definitly don't need to send anyone the helmet. If you ask someone to make you the maille and they say they need your helmet to fit it properly then don't go with that person they don't know what they're dooing.

The aventail is very easy to fit onto the helm with the vervilles. Basically the aventail should be bigger around then the helmet. You may need to trim off a little maille at the top of the face opening but that's VERY easy to do.

Attach the aventail by running a lace of some kind through the top row of the rings. As you thread the lace through the maille lace it into the vervilles as you come to them. Count the rings in the top row of the avential so you know how many to put between each verville.

I recommended that you don't put maille overtop of your chin for one reason. It's not all that comfortable.

Now for your bargrill you may want to consider a ventail. A ventail is a triangular piece of maille that is attached to the area where your chin would be. This triangular section of maille then hooks up on your helm in the forehead area. The reason you might want this is that it'll hide your bargrill a little so that it'll look more like a non-bargrill open faced bascinet.

As to who could make it. Well you could. It's not very hard and I'm perfectly willing to help you. It'll just take you some time but you can do it while sitting in front of the tv. You'd probably spend 0-50 bux for wire and tools depending on how you want to do things.

Or if you really don't want to do it yourself I'm perfectly willing. Go take a look at my website for some pics of aventails I've done. Sorry there's no pics of this specifically but you'll get the idea.

If you get someone other then me to do it for you that's fine too. There's something very important that you have to insist on though. An aventail MUST have expansions starting just above your shoulders. Otherwise it just won't fit. There are people who make em without expansions. Seams are an acceptable method for expansion but I just don't like the look personally although it is perfectly functional.

As far as ring size and gauge go you've got lots of options. If you want aluminum make sure it's 12.5 gauge and max size of 3/8" inner diameter. I recommend Ld Charles for this.

Or you could go with stainless rings or galvanized. You can add bronze trim (I don't reccomend brass it's too soft).

Now I prefer to make maille to be used for combat from 5/16" inner diameter 16gauge galvanized wire. This weave is plenty durable for combat and is actually right at the top of the weight range for historical maille of the time period your helm comes from. It would weigh in at around 2.5-3#

An alternative to this is 16 gauge with smaller rings (smaller you go the heavier it gets).

Also you can go with 14 gauge if you like. With 14 gauge you can go as big as 3/8" inner diameter and as low as 1/4" id. Smaller you go the heavier it gets and 3/8 is heavier then 16ga 5/16 to begin with.

If you're purchasing the maille from someone ask them how their rings are cut, ask about the reputation of the person here, and ask to see some examples of their work (doesn't have to be an aventail). I prefer to cut my rings with shear type cutters. This gives a cleaner butting end then pinch type cutters. On the other hand people that cut their rings with a saw or dremmel produce even better cuts then shear type cutters.

Use these factors when you compare prices.

Anyway I think that's about it. Lemme know if you've got more questions.

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The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Fri Jan 05, 2001 11:39 am

Generally, it is not necessary to have the helm when I make an aventail for one - provided the owner of the help wants to do the leatherwork and the attachment of the aventail to that leatherwork.

The maille is flexible enough that all I really need to know is the bottom circumferance of the helm and the width of the face opening.

But in order to make the leather strap that goes around and over the vervelles I need the helm.

Steve
(I'm not available for commissions, btw)

Morlahn Hobbs · Post by **Morlahn Hobbs** » Fri Jan 05, 2001 11:45 am

Thanks for the quick replies, and thanks for the great explanation, Matt.

hobbs

DanNV · Post by **DanNV** » Fri Jan 05, 2001 12:10 pm

About all I can add is definately use the leather strip to attach the mail, don't just lace the mail directly to the helmet.

Dan

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Fri Jan 05, 2001 12:20 pm

Doh!! Knew I forgot something. The leather strap. Yup listen to them. Steve Vitus and DanV all really know what they're talking about.

You should feel blessed. Three of the really knowledgable people answered your post. And so did I.

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The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

Morlahn Hobbs · Post by **Morlahn Hobbs** » Fri Jan 05, 2001 12:23 pm

Thanks, I do feel blessed!

hobbs