Greathelm Mantle, construction advice?

[Feargus]

I'm not entirely certain if that's what it's called, however, I've seen many pictures of what looks like a cloth doughnut on top of a Pembroke style of helm which has streamers etc/ hanging from the back.

(I don't however, need the sculpture that goes on top of it, I don't want to charge into battle looking like a demented Carmen Miranda with fruit on my head, or an sitting bird or whatnot)

I think they look neat, and I want one for my own helm, but I can't figure out quite how to make one that would either stand up to combat abuse, or be sufficiently easy/cheap to replace that I can afford to make them last only 1 fight. they clearly seem to have some underlying structure under the cloth wrap, and I haven't been able to find anything that states what it was made from.

This may not be the correct forum for this, being a purely decorative aspect of armoring. I couldn't decide if this should go into this forum, or the research forum.

[InsaneIrish]

I think what you are talking about is a Torse.

Here is how I did mine.



And you end up with this:

[Tailoress]

This may not be the correct forum for this, being a purely decorative aspect of armoring. I couldn't decide if this should go into this forum, or the research forum.

This forum is fine, and your other best choice would be Interpretive Recreation, rather than Historical. If you're asking for construction advice, Interpretive Recreation is a great resource for just about anything that's not metal armour itself (but metal armour certainly isn't excluded). Historical is more for discussion of research behind a given subject. Discussing the historical evidence and context for torses would be good fodder for the Historical forum.

[ETC]

Nice post Irish!! Thanks!!

ETC

[Feargus]

Thank you Irish, that was precisely what I was looking for.

I always thought they were of more rigid construction than cotton batting,(like woven wicker or some such) but I'm relieved to know that it's so easy to make.

[Bernhart von Bruck]

Chello!

And what Irish is not saying is this: look at the colors of the pictured torses. This was his solution to stickers on helms for Gulf Wars. Blue/White for Trimaris, Gold/Black for Ansteorra.

[InsaneIrish]

Chello!

And what Irish is not saying is this: look at the colors of the pictured torses. This was his solution to stickers on helms for Gulf Wars. Blue/White for Trimaris, Gold/Black for Ansteorra.

yep!

They worked well, even if I did have to argue my point with the woman handing out stickers.

[Owyn]

That's SO much better than stickers or bits of colored tape. Nicely done!

If I might ask, when were these used? And what was the purpose behind them? Were they purely decorative, or symbolic, or...something else? Thanks - it's a pretty nice addition to a helm!

[InsaneIrish]

That's SO much better than stickers or bits of colored tape. Nicely done!

If I might ask, when were these used? And what was the purpose behind them? Were they purely decorative, or symbolic, or...something else? Thanks - it's a pretty nice addition to a helm!

Last year at Gulf Wars. The blue and white is for the Trimaran side, the black and gold for the Ansteorran.

I didn't know know which side my kingdom was fighting for, so I made 2 just in case.

I simply slipped them on and told the sticker lady that she needed not put a horrid sticker on my nice helm because I made color appropriate torses.

After a bit of discussing it, she aquiessed to my request.

[Cassius the Rabbit]

They are A GREAT way to not have stickers on your helms. How are they attached? Are they just tied on? Do you have any problem with them coming off in battle?

[InsaneIrish]

They are A GREAT way to not have stickers on your helms. How are they attached? Are they just tied on? Do you have any problem with them coming off in battle?

Mine are pressure fit.

I measured the length needed for them to fit around the helm then subtracted that amount by 1". Tied it off and slipped it on. I also put a few lengths (about 1" long) of double stick tape on the inside of the torse to keep it still.

I wore it for a whole week at Gulf Wars and it never once came off.


Now, my helm has a natural shape to keep them on, depending on your helm you may need to add tape or ties to keep it on. Each helm is different.

[Owyn]

Again, very nice stuff. Actually, I meant historically, when were helms adorned in this manner? Some cursory Googling has indicated it was used as a part of heraldry, but this is a piece of armor accoutrement I am completely unfamiliar with.

[don]

As far as "armour accoutrement" goes, think more tourneys vice war ( or in the case of a live football game, the game or the cheeerleaders).

Another idea on that thread is if a style of armour was all the rage, how could the common soldier figure out who to follow?

For cheap, using poly/cotton broadcloth would suffice [45"wide stuff goes for about $3 a meter (little longer then a yard, 110yrds is 100m) locally)

Don

[Destichado]

Again, very nice stuff. Actually, I meant historically, when were helms adorned in this manner? Some cursory Googling has indicated it was used as a part of heraldry, but this is a piece of armor accoutrement I am completely unfamiliar with.

Well, it sort of depends on what you're thinking of. The torse and mantle were part of 13th century armor fashion, and they survived through the 14th century worn over greathelms. An item superficially similar to a torse was worn over bascinets -the name escapes me, 14th century mafia will know- but it's a big padded donut for properly fitting the greathelm, and ranged from plainly functional, to heraldic, to brocaded and bejeweled.

[es02]

Again, very nice stuff. Actually, I meant historically, when were helms adorned in this manner? Some cursory Googling has indicated it was used as a part of heraldry, but this is a piece of armor accoutrement I am completely unfamiliar with.

Well, it sort of depends on what you're thinking of. The torse and mantle were part of 13th century armor fashion, and they survived through the 14th century worn over greathelms. An item superficially similar to a torse was worn over bascinets -the name escapes me, 14th century mafia will know- but it's a big padded donut for properly fitting the greathelm, and ranged from plainly functional, to heraldic, to brocaded and bejeweled.

I was always of the understanding, at least from a 14thC perspective that it was used as part of ones heraldic achievement (display shield and crested greathelm) as part of the helm crest.

[img]http://lionrampant.com.au/gallery/album ... ampion.jpg[/img]
On the left of this shot you can see a heraldic achievement very nicely failing to illustrate my point (edit: but should give you an idea of what I'm on about) where he has his bishops hat as his helm creast the torse would sit just below that holding on the cap/mantle.

[Richard Blackmoore]

Again, very nice stuff. Actually, I meant historically, when were helms adorned in this manner? Some cursory Googling has indicated it was used as a part of heraldry, but this is a piece of armor accoutrement I am completely unfamiliar with.

Well, it sort of depends on what you're thinking of. The torse and mantle were part of 13th century armor fashion, and they survived through the 14th century worn over greathelms. An item superficially similar to a torse was worn over bascinets -the name escapes me, 14th century mafia will know- but it's a big padded donut for properly fitting the greathelm, and ranged from plainly functional, to heraldic, to brocaded and bejeweled.

You are possibly referring to an 'orle'.

Richard

[Donald St. Colin]

Took InsaneIrish's advice. Here is how my torse came out for spring crown. Has my Lady's arms on it.

[InsaneIrish]

Domnall that turned out AWESOME! Good job!

[Donald St. Colin]

Thank you.

[wolf16mt]

Just a thanks on this one. I was able to make my own with my colors. And its also how i found this forum. So double thanks. Ill post a helm pic when i get on my pc next!

[Konstantin the Red]

Then -- welcome and well come, Wolf16mt. May your stay with us be long and profit you much. Wolf for the

RESURRECT-O-THREAD.

[Ernst]

There is good reason to leave the torse off 14th century helms. They didn't use them.
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=151175

[Johann ColdIron]

Thought I had already given this advice but- Just remember when you make and use one of these on your helm that you have added a giant padded dougnut to it and calling blows will need to be recalibrated. They can make calling flat snaps that land on it very difficult.

[wolf16mt]

Yeah, I feel useful now. im more of a refaire visitor with the want of getting into the SCA style duels, fighting. but again. thanks.

[Konstantin the Red]

Cool... and with your location we can offer a clue about the nearest Middle Kingdom SCA group to you to go play with... hmm. [flip flip flip]

It might have been a convenience for out-of-Kingdomers had the splashiest, most interactive part of the Midrealm's locations page included the mundane names of the places, instead of stopping at the SCA Barony and Shire names. And their lovely heraldry.

But with some workaround, I see you're in the Midrealm Region of South Oaken, likely Barony of Flaming Gryphon. You can sort out the counties reff'd on the page more easily than I. Looks like you can find a lot of playmates right quick if you haven't found them already.

Region of South Oaken. Includes Cincinnati for sure, maybe a chapter in Dayton OH.

Anyway, Barony of Fenix is about 35 miles from your place, it being Cincinnati.

[wolf16mt]

Thanks for the footwork on the sca findings. I appreciate it. I am going to look into that and see where it goes.

[Konstantin the Red]

Should net you, as I suggested, lots of swordplaymates to keep in shape with!

I see you have a helm and something like a mail coif -- and that your surcoat is at least partly yellow... any part of harness that you are missing? Or want improved? Official SCA Armour Standards mandate hard coverage of elbows, knees, 'nads and kidneys. The Kingdom of the Middle may have additional requirements in the kingdom Armour Standards posted on its website, to have you, as the parlance goes, Lists legal. (Properly equipped to compete fully in the Crown Tournaments, and other tournaments.)

[Donald St. Colin]

Belmonte Spain. IMCF world championship.