Modern HWMA manuals

^ · Post by ^ » Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:42 pm

I am wondering what peoples opinions are on some of the books that interpret medieval WMA manuals such as
MEDIEVAL SWORD AND SHIELD:The Combat System of Royal Armouries MS I.33

THE SWORDSMANS' COMPANION
A Modern Training Manual for the Medieval Longsword
Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship
etc

jester · Post by **jester** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:26 pm

I think Medieval Sword and Shield is a must read if you are studying I.33. That said, I don't like the organization of the book as it can make it very hard to compare the interpretation in the book to the illustrated techniques. I disagree with about half of the interpretation (on some pretty key points). I feel (perhaps incorrectly) that the section on footwork goes beyond being a way to express possible footwork and becomes a grafting that imposes the footwork upon the system. Both Paul Wagner and Stephen Hand have revised their interpretations. I don't know if Paul has published anything, but Stephen published an update to this in Spada II.

If you are looking at I.33 I suggest looking up the videos on YouTube so you can see the work being done by the European groups. There are some excellent I.33 scholars in the SCA (I'm told) but I haven't seen the work of anyone but Robert Holland (and his interpretation is well worth looking at).

Saritor · Post by **Saritor** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:06 pm

Is there a particular system/style that you had in mind? There's quite a few books out there, some of them better than others, but it really kind of varies by style.

iomtalach · Post by **iomtalach** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:15 pm

Opinions on the books, or opinions on the fact that they exist?

Anything by Guy Windsor is good. He does proper modern interpretations.

Or anything on Tom Leoni's Order of the Seven Hearts website, done by him or Steve Reich.

Everyone else gets confused between translation and interpretation, and mixes the two up.

Some of the others are good aids to translations, but that's about it. The field is still pretty up in the air.

Straight up good translations are pretty rare. Jherek Swanger and Tom Leoni lead the pack in accurate, readable, useable translations.

^ · Post by ^ » Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:19 pm

Saritor wrote:Is there a particular system/style that you had in mind? There's quite a few books out there, some of them better than others, but it really kind of varies by style.

I guess my answer is pre-1500 Europe.

Saritor · Post by **Saritor** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:21 pm

Piers Brent wrote:I guess my answer is pre-1500 Europe.

Actually, that rules out a surprising amount.

juan · Post by **juan** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:45 pm

jester wrote:I think Medieval Sword and Shield is a must read if you are studying I.33. That said, I don't like the organization of the book as it can make it very hard to compare the interpretation in the book to the illustrated techniques. I disagree with about half of the interpretation (on some pretty key points). I feel (perhaps incorrectly) that the section on footwork goes beyond being a way to express possible footwork and becomes a grafting that imposes the footwork upon the system. Both Paul Wagner and Stephen Hand have revised their interpretations. I don't know if Paul has published anything, but Stephen published an update to this in Spada II.

If you are looking at I.33 I suggest looking up the videos on YouTube so you can see the work being done by the European groups. There are some excellent I.33 scholars in the SCA (I'm told) but I haven't seen the work of anyone but Robert Holland (and his interpretation is well worth looking at).

Robert's does differ a bit from Wagner and Hands' interpretations, but all acknowldge a debt to those two. Sean Hayes has also done a fair amount of work on the I.33 system and his interpretation differs a bit, yet again, from the previous three gentlemen. I don't know what he's published on it.

BobKnight · Post by **BobKnight** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:13 pm

Italian or German?

Nissan Maxima · Post by **Nissan Maxima** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:28 pm

I am currently doing work with the swordsman's companion.

My perspective is SCA, so I am not paying as much attention to the grappling portions of the book.

It is clearly written and the balance and movement drills are effective sensible. It has good acvice regarding practice and conditioning.

I bought mine from Murdock and I think he still has a crate of them.

Ken Mondschein · Post by **Ken Mondschein** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:55 pm

Look into DVDs as well. The advantage is you get to see interpretations in motion - picture worth a thousand words and all that.

I won't recommend any personally, since I don't want to seem partial.

welder · Post by **welder** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:45 pm

As for mixing interpretation and translation, this is unavoidable. The process of translation itself requires interpretation in the form of phrasing and annotation. Hence "traduttore, traditore." The moment that you pick up a text and try to visualize the actions it describes, you are forming an interpretation. Important things to look for in a modern HEMA text are a clear separation of the translated original text from the author's suggested implementation of that text, and a high weight of annotation (in both) explaining the reasoning behind the author's interpretation.

I'd suggest that you also consider examining post-1500 works as well, even if your interest is earlier, since the arts of Digrassi and Agrippa certainly didn't spring fully formed from the forehead of Zeus in the 1550's. I continue to be struck by the overlap between the 14th-century techniques of Fiore and later masters of different weapons.

As an aside, anyone working with Guy's book should be aware of this page:

Revisions to The Swordsman's Companion

-William