a common combat language?

[Stahlgrim]

Being a damn yankee (East kingdom transplant to Trimaris)I have noticed a big difference in the names of shots each kingdom uses.Some are the same while others are vastly different.I have had to learn a lot of local wording. what are some of the names of blows from your neck of the woods?

[jester]

Jargon is an important part of fighting as it serves the purpose of being a mnemonic construct (encapsulating complex ideas into vivid, simple terms) and a group identifier, solidifying the membership of the individual in the group and building group identity.

[muttman]

I found the same thing in my brief forray into Trimaris from the East. If I had known you were down there when I was I would have looked you up-we could have made fun of the way people talk together just like back in New England (I used to love making folks visiting pronounce Worcester and Peabody )
Drefan

[Roibeard MacNeill]

(I used to love making folks visiting pronounce Worcester and Peabody )
Drefan

That took me a while to get used to when I moved up here...Pea-buhdee and Wistah...

The jargon up here in the East is somewhat different than in Gleann Abhann, but nothing that wasn't overcome quickly.

[Vladimir]

I'm guessing you are not refering to names found in period combat manuals but rather SCA shots.

The three basic shots I was taught when I started were

"Hello, how are you, goodbye"

Hello - Flat snap or rising flat snap
How are you - reverse off the snap
Goodbye - straight down the center off the reverse

By themselves

Flat snap - needs no explanation

Rising flat snap - a snap where the pomell rises up and the tip dips down to run the blade paralell with the top edge of a heater shield.

Reverse - self explanatory I'm sure

Cave man - straight down the center of the helmet.

Wrap - reverse edge hit that swings around or below your opponents defences

Scorpion - a wrap shot thrown over your opponents head

Thumb lead - a reverse wrap shot

Those are the only SCA shots I remember that had names.

[carlyle]

Thumb lead - a reverse wrap shot

Most places I know use the terms 'thumb lead' and 'wrap' interchangeably. If by 'thumb lead' you mean an off-side attack where the final hand position is palm up, there is only one fighter I've met in 30 years who could even demonstrate, and even he admits it's a low percentage blow. I'ld be very eager to know if this shot has really been identified elsewhere, let alone that it was actually being practiced/taught.

Respectfully... AoC

[Vladimir]

If by 'thumb lead' you mean an off-side attack where the final hand position is palm up, there is only one fighter I've met in 30 years who could even demonstrate, and even he admits it's a low percentage blow.

That is is precisely. It was not considered a "basic" technique, but I have found it to be pretty easy with a mace.

[carlyle]

If by 'thumb lead' you mean an off-side attack where the final hand position is palm up...

That is is precisely. It was not considered a "basic" technique, but I have found it to be pretty easy with a mace.

Well, mace is a rare beast anywhere I've been, so it's no surprise I missed it. If you don't mind my asking, do you know if your weapon hip has rotated forward at time of impact? Or is your shield hip rotated forward (like in a "backhand" blow)?

Also, is your palm really facing up, or is it more perpindicular to the ground -- the orientation would result in a line that looks like you are striking with your knuckles/back of hand? I only ask this last because I have seen mace fighters use this technique to "shorthand" a backhand strike (can't do it with a sword because of the requirement for blade orientation).

With thanks in advance...

Alfred

[Kilkenny]

I'll agree that "offside wraps" by any name are pretty rare birds. I can't really document that I've ever actually used one, but I do work them on the pell from time to time, making sure they're in the repertoire and available should someone present the opportunity.

But then I've spent more time than many playing around with just what weird stuff I can make a stick do

[Bob H]

I'm interested in hearing more about this technique, as I've found use for it against others of my approximate skills. Please don't let that stop us discussing it.

As I've tried it, imagine you're fighting someone with a very static, closed heater defense, you throw a flat snap to high on the helmet, and instead of catching it with the corner they simply raise the whole shield so the shot skips across the top. The logical thing for me is to recover from the whiff by pulling the elbow straight back, but I've missed an opportunity ... the sword is already on the opponent's unprotected side and inside his defenses. Assuming that I, instead of recovering, complete the whiff, if I simply turn my sword hand palm up while pulling back on the sword hip and rotating the sword elbow to straight down, the sword whips up to the opponent's temple in a "reverse wrap". The arm motion is nearly identical to a hard-style Japanese karate strongside middle block executed from a strongside reverse punch, which similarity caused me to see it as a potential opportunity.

I can do it on a pell easily, if not accurately. I can do it when the situation presents itself during fighting (once more, against others of my limited skillset). What I can't do is make it consistently hit with authoritae, and I haven't been able to discover where I'm losing force.

Is it simply a flawed or useless technique, or am I just not executing it correctly?

[carlyle]

Is it simply a flawed or useless technique, or am I just not executing it correctly?

It is not useless, but it is very difficult to execute with any authority. As I see it, there are three very significant factors working against you:

First, the set-up time is usually very long. The only way I have seen it demonstrated is as a first blow (I'm not certain it can be effectively thrown as a follow-up). For this, there is a full half-beat spent in moving the sword to your own off-side.

Second, it is thrown against the natural strength of the hand. Most folks seem to be built such that pushing against the bottom of the fist will not cause the wrist to move, but pushing down against the top of the fist with relatively little force will cause the wrist to bend. This means the orientation of the hand at impact can't really support a lot of power contribution from the rest of the power train (ground-feet-legs-hips-torso-shoulder-arm), so a lot of force "bleeds" off the target.

Finally, the force of the swing is away from the core of the body, further reducing the amount of power you can put into the shot. This is what differentiates it from a normal wrap. Even though a wrap also works against the strongest orientation of the hand, the fact that you are pulling the blow back into your core allows you to contribute a lot of additional power from your "center" (compare this to a "right cross" which benefits from throwing with the strong orientation of the hand but away from the core -- interesting trade-off, isn't it?). The "off-side wrap", though is pushing the power away from you, so it cannot use "centered" power to help the blow.

It may be that the tip-heavy dynamics of the mace can compensate for some of this loss. It is certainly true that someone who practices it is more likely to use it than someone who does not (me). The long time it takes to set this blow up, though, combined with the serious disconnects from your best power sources (the power train and your center), tend to lead me to believe that, though possible, there are other techniques I can work on with much, much higher rates-of-return.

The logical thing for me is to recover from the whiff by pulling the elbow straight back...

I don't want to seem overly critical, but this did catch my eye. If you are pulling your elbow back, you are directing power away from your target, and anything you do to compensate for this loss may well make your backhands slow or difficult to target. If you drive your hand up and forward in the backhand, you will find there is a lot more power and a much better window vis-a-vis your opponent's off-side.

It may seem counterintuitive because you are pulling yoru sword-hip back at the same time. My suggestion is to orient your body and weapon as if you've frozen time at the time of impact. You'll note that your hand is high and forward of the plain of your shoulders (at least, it should be). Now, if you "unwind" your hips to "zero" while keeping your sword arm locked, your sword and arm will swing around to a new position. At this point, your sword is no longer connected with the target, and your hand should be out in front of you, above your head, about even with your centerline (you should be looking up and out at your hand in space). Note that it is definitely NOT behind you.

If you can memorize this point in space and always put your hand there when you are throwing the backhand, you will actually drive the blow into your opponent, rather than pulling it back behind you. It will also change the line of the attack, allowing you to work the space behind your opponent's shield better than if you yanked your blade back behind your head (this line tends to run along the face and top edge of your opponent's shield, much as you described).

I don't know if this is at all helpful (describing techique in text on the internet has got to be the worst medium I've ever worked with), and I apologize in advance if I've only managed to confuse things further. I suppose I could work up a quick video instruction (where is that camera, anyway). I'm just not sure I'm ready to have anyone see how fat and lazy I've become .

With friendship... AoC

[dukelogan]

i throw, and define, a thumb lead as a shot that lands with the backedge of the blade thrown in front of the opponent. such as a shot that is thrown from a belly to belly position with the thumb pointing down, the palm facing the opponent, and the backedge striking the belly/chest/armpit/etc.

regards
logan

[carlyle]

i throw, and define, a thumb lead as a shot that lands with the backedge of the blade thrown in front of the opponent. such as a shot that is thrown from a belly to belly position with the thumb pointing down, the palm facing the opponent, and the backedge striking the belly/chest/armpit/etc.

Logan -- This is fascinating. Does your wrist rotate counter-clockwise to achieve this orientation? By way of comparison, the blow I was describing has the wrist rotating clockwise... AoC

[Kilkenny]

I'm interested in hearing more about this technique, as I've found use for it against others of my approximate skills. Please don't let that stop us discussing it.

As I've tried it, imagine you're fighting someone with a very static, closed heater defense, you throw a flat snap to high on the helmet, and instead of catching it with the corner they simply raise the whole shield so the shot skips across the top. The logical thing for me is to recover from the whiff by pulling the elbow straight back, but I've missed an opportunity ... the sword is already on the opponent's unprotected side and inside his defenses. Assuming that I, instead of recovering, complete the whiff, if I simply turn my sword hand palm up while pulling back on the sword hip and rotating the sword elbow to straight down, the sword whips up to the opponent's temple in a "reverse wrap". The arm motion is nearly identical to a hard-style Japanese karate strongside middle block executed from a strongside reverse punch, which similarity caused me to see it as a potential opportunity.

I can do it on a pell easily, if not accurately. I can do it when the situation presents itself during fighting (once more, against others of my limited skillset). What I can't do is make it consistently hit with authoritae, and I haven't been able to discover where I'm losing force.

Is it simply a flawed or useless technique, or am I just not executing it correctly?

The technique has certain integral weaknesses, not the least of which is its complexity. I wouldn't stop working on it, were I you.

However, I'm with Alfred in that I think you're missing an easier option.
When your sword skips past the centerline you've got several options.
Simplest and most energy efficient is to just let it keep swinging, raise your hand a bit and have the sword swing on around and there you are back at your starting point, more or less. Probably the most complex and energy intensive is to stop the sword and reverse its direction into the offside wrap to the head.


In between the two is a conventional, true edge, attack to the offside of the head. As the sword swings past center, your elbow will be pointing downward and also be moving toward your centerline, if not past it.
Think of your elbow as a toggle switch. If you turn it from pointing down to pointing out and up, it will turn your hand over and start to reverse the direction of its movement. The blade of your sword will arc over and around, coming back at your opponent's head in a true edge attack.

This is very energy efficient, easy on the body, mechanically sound, etc.
It has a different angle of attack and a different timing than the false edge attack.

It is also possible to do a loop recovery (see above elbow movement, etc.) into a false edge strike by continuing the roll until the palm faces up again. This once more changes timing and angle, is more energy efficient than directly reversing the sword and is more complex and less mechanically sound than the true edge strike.

Another variation on the theme would be to roll over into one of the attacks Duke Logan refers to as a thumblead. In this situation, you would roll the elbow but Not turn the hand over to palm down. Instead, the hand turns palm toward the opponent and your blade is targeted toward the armpit, body or leg rather than head. For most people, these require considerable leaning of the torso in order to get proper alignment of the shoulders. They are not as mechanically sound as the true edge backhand, but are more sound than the offside wrap. They are very fast and when thrown against an opponent who has already seen the backhand they are extremely deceptive.

[dukelogan]

ummmm..... doing it slowly i would describe it as my elbow tucking across my chest (like how i throw most of my flat snaps), my wrist starts to turn over like im delivering the flat snap, as it does my arm continues to rise (like im trying to kiss my biceps), then in one motion the wrist turns back towards me (thumb facing my head) as the sword goes over my head just clearing the helm, the elbow then gets thrown over the helm as the sword tip accelerates and comes into the target at an upwards angle.

very similar to throwing an offside to the body up close except that the blades approach is opposite. a lazy attempt to block an offside to the armpit with your blade works, against the tumb lead the blade comes up from under your guarding blade and you get tagged.

dont know if that helps clear it up but im always available at gulf wars this year and every pennsic. one of these days i will finish working on the tutorial video section of my household site and will include it. right now revamping http://www.fighterpractice.com has been eating a lot of my web time.

regards
logan

i throw, and define, a thumb lead as a shot that lands with the backedge of the blade thrown in front of the opponent. such as a shot that is thrown from a belly to belly position with the thumb pointing down, the palm facing the opponent, and the backedge striking the belly/chest/armpit/etc.

Logan -- This is fascinating. Does your wrist rotate counter-clockwise to achieve this orientation? By way of comparison, the blow I was describing has the wrist rotating clockwise... AoC

[ThorvaldR Skegglauss]

Interesting, what Logan is describing is what I have been calling an offside wrap or offside false edge shot. It is something I have been working on lately. It does exactly what Logan said about coming in at a different angle therebye bypassing the sword block.

I was taught that a "thumb lead wrap" was the quick onside wrap where you just turn your hand over in the last half of the onside shot. Changing the angle to get around the point of the shield; best used as the no look to the lower onside leg just above the knee.

Thorvaldr

[ThorvaldR Skegglauss]

Alfred,

yes the wrist goes counter clockwise to get this shot to work, and the elbow goes up.

regards
Thorvaldr

[Balin D'Acier]

I'm experiencing the frustration of this currently. As a new fighter (been out for 5 months at the end of March, authorized at the end of January,) I'm going to as many practices as I can get in, and trying to learn as much as I can from everyone I talk to.

It's not even limited to Inter-Kingdom. I've gone over to neighboring baronies and heard shots called different things than I usually hear them referred to at home. It can be really confusing at times when you're new and trying to pick up the stuff quickly. Many times I'll have a fighter explain a shot to me and then I realize "Oh, we call it X."

An example of how this can mess you up:

A few weeks ago, I was in the neighboring barony of Tir-Y-Don fighting one of their left-handed fighters, Lord Matthew. I'd never fought a lefty before, so he was teaching me the ropes.

At one point he said "Watch the Axe-shot." I had no clue what he was talking about, and assumed maybe he was referring to the next shot he was going to throw (ie teach me a new shot).

In reality he meant the shot I had just thrown on him, what I refer to as a Slot-shot, or Chop-shot, and what Vladimir refers to above as a "Caveman." (See? even I call it by different things.) What Lord Matthew was trying to tell me was that as a right-handed fighter, that shot wasn't the best thing to throw on a lefty. But having no clue what an "Axe-shot" was, I went right back out and threw it again, and he tapped me to show me where he really could have lit me up.

It's probably more of a problem for newer fighters who are still learing the jargon. At this point if I'm unsure, I simply ask the fighter to show me slowly the shot he's referring to and then try to create a synthesis of terms in my head. ("Oh, he means shot A, which I call shot B, but have also heard referred to as shot C..")

[Kilkenny]

I'll help really confuse things now

There are only three kinds of blows. True edge strikes, false edge strikes and thrusts.

These three kinds of blows can be thrown to any target. They continue to be either true edge, false edge, or thrust, no matter where the target may be.

They can be thrown with many different body mechanics, yet they continue to be true edge, false edge, or thrust.

Defining the target - offside, onside, centerline; head, body, leg - refines what mechanics can be applied.

A "Caveman" strike is just a true edge blow to the centerline of the head.

Wraps, thumb leads, wrist leads, snapwraps are all simply false edge blows. Some people break false edge blows into groupings based on target (see Duke Logan's use of "thumb lead") while others are named for mechanics (snapwraps).

When you're trying to understand what blow a person is talking about with a given name, if you can get them to tell you which edge, what target and the basic mechanics, you should be able to fit it into whatever naming conventions you're familiar with

BTW, the Boom Yow has its own category

[Bastior]

Your Grace there's also range.

I was taught a wrap as a close in shot landing on your opponents back, at various heights and angles, usually with a large portion of the blade in contact with the target. A thumb lead was the same shot at a longer range. You threw from further out landing a blow with or near the tip of the sword on the side of your opponent, usually having got around the outside of the raised corner of a heater.

B

[dukelogan]

isnt simplicity a beautiful thing! although i prefer back edge to false edge. it sounds to me like an edge is an edge and "back edge" leaves no doubt as to which part of the blade we are talking about.

regards
logan

I'll help really confuse things now

There are only three kinds of blows. True edge strikes, false edge strikes and thrusts.

These three kinds of blows can be thrown to any target. They continue to be either true edge, false edge, or thrust, no matter where the target may be.

They can be thrown with many different body mechanics, yet they continue to be true edge, false edge, or thrust.

Defining the target - offside, onside, centerline; head, body, leg - refines what mechanics can be applied.

A "Caveman" strike is just a true edge blow to the centerline of the head.

Wraps, thumb leads, wrist leads, snapwraps are all simply false edge blows. Some people break false edge blows into groupings based on target (see Duke Logan's use of "thumb lead") while others are named for mechanics (snapwraps).

When you're trying to understand what blow a person is talking about with a given name, if you can get them to tell you which edge, what target and the basic mechanics, you should be able to fit it into whatever naming conventions you're familiar with

BTW, the Boom Yow has its own category

[Kilkenny]

isnt simplicity a beautiful thing! although i prefer back edge to false edge. it sounds to me like an edge is an edge and "back edge" leaves no doubt as to which part of the blade we are talking about.

regards
logan

I've taken to using "false edge" as a nod to the WMA terminology, although I don't know where they get it from. And I've never quite understood what about it is "false"

[Bob H]

The logical thing for me is to recover from the whiff by pulling the elbow straight back...

I don't want to seem overly critical, but this did catch my eye. If you are pulling your elbow back, you are directing power away from your target, and anything you do to compensate for this loss may well make your backhands slow or difficult to target. If you drive your hand up and forward in the backhand, you will find there is a lot more power and a much better window vis-a-vis your opponent's off-side.

I didn't describe it very well, it's a recovery, not a blow. What I was trying to say is that if my flat snap skips off or whiffs, most likely I'm now overextended and in a poor defensive position, and can expect to "receive incoming". The pull back is just a quick recovery, done by pulling elbow, hand, and sword tip back in a straight line, as if recovering a spear from a thrust.

[carlyle]

I'll help really confuse things now

There are only three kinds of blows. True edge strikes, false edge strikes and thrusts.

...

They can be thrown with many different body mechanics, yet they continue to be true edge, false edge, or thrust.

I find that, for the sake of training, it is helpful to reduce the mechanics to two -- either sword/strong/right foot driving, or shield/weak/left foot driving. "Strong" and "weak" are useful terms when working with single-or two-weapon forms; I'm right-handed, so my "strong" foot is my right foot, my "weak" foot is my left. The power train begins with a push off the ground from one or the other foot.

The difference in mechanics is usually a compromise on where the fighter wants to draw power from, and how much. The power can be "shorthanded" by using less of the lower-body train and more upper-body (shoulder, arm), though the full form is still evident by what remains. There are trade-offs, but as Gavin indicated, they can be worthwhile given the target and specific opportunity. I focus the training on the "idealized" blow employing the complete power train, since I believe it is easier for a fighter to adjust "down" when they don't need it all than it is for them to "dial it up" when they want more.

In all other things Gavin says, though, I agree. I don't use the same breakdown, but the simplicity of Gavin's vocabulary is admirable. Instead of teaching what part of the blade you are striking with, I refer to the orientation of the palm (palm up, palm down). Combined with the above driving foot/hip rotation, there are four blows -- palm up, strong foot driving; palm down, strong foot driving, palm down, weak foot driving; and palm up, weak foot driving (our infamous "off-side wrap").

There is no One True Way here, and Gavin's is probably just as effective and may work even better with some students. Mine is a stylistic choice, simply because I feel new fighters get too focused on hitting their target while ignoring their form. By removing even the sword from the training terms, I am reinforcing that it is the form that is key, and all else follow from there.

Still, four shots to Gavin's three, so since simplicity rules, I guess he wins !

With regards,

Alfred of Carlyle

[Kilkenny]

Your Grace there's also range.

I was taught a wrap as a close in shot landing on your opponents back, at various heights and angles, usually with a large portion of the blade in contact with the target. A thumb lead was the same shot at a longer range. You threw from further out landing a blow with or near the tip of the sword on the side of your opponent, usually having got around the outside of the raised corner of a heater.

B

Nope See, that's a naming convention breakdown, because the blow is still a false edge strike. There are mechanics for short-range false edge strikes that don't work at long range. There are also mechanics for long range false edge strikes that will work quite close in (where the strike lands on the sword will change greatly depending on the range with these).

The real distinction isn't range but targeting. The halfwrap, aka snapwrap and per your terms thumb lead is never aimed at the back of the target. It is an attack to the side of the target (same target areas as a true edge strike typically has). Because it lands with the false edge it changes angles and timing compared to a true edge strike.

The false edge strikes to the back of the target require a different mechanic to reach the target. It is this "wrap" around to the back of the target that lead to the name...


The bottom line though, is that if you tell me which edge you are striking with and what target you are striking to, I can narrow down the options for the mechanics of the strike - typically to one set.

[carlyle]

very similar to throwing an offside to the body up close except that the blades approach is opposite. a lazy attempt to block an offside to the armpit with your blade works, against the tumb lead the blade comes up from under your guarding blade and you get tagged

Yep, definitely need that video ...

I think I may have figured out what I was missing. I suspect that you are throwing the offside body with the shield foot driving (a "backhand", clockwise hip). By changing the hand orientation to "thumb lead", you can "dig" a little deeper and flatter. If this is the case, I was having this huge disconnect because I was visualizing the off-side body as thrown by Jade, which uses the "sword" foot to drive the blow ("forehand" hip rotation). I could not make the 'thumb lead" hand orientation work; it makes more sense now if I use the other rotation.

Thanks for taking the time to explain the blow. At least now I'm not quite as worried that I was completely missing a technique from my own vocabulary ... AoC

[Kilkenny]

Something to take into consideration: the breakdown I'm offering isn't so much one to use in training as it is one to use in translating terminology.

You can call a blow Irmintrude and if you tell me which edge and which target, I'll be able to fit it into my personal conventions of shot naming and probably work out mechanics for it.

Even a novice, given an understanding of the basic terms of the breakdown (true edge, false edge, thrust and target names) should be able to pretty quickly assemble an approximation of the blow being discussed and start fitting it into *their* shot naming conventions.

When trying to show someone how to throw a false edge strike to the onside head, I'm going to give them lots more information about how all the parts move and what it should feel like

[carlyle]

Your Grace there's also range.

Nope . See, that's a naming convention breakdown, because the blow is still a false edge strike.

I wouldn't be too hard on him, Gavin. Range is an integral component, so if someone wanted to base his vocabulary on range and target, he could probably omit the edge, too. I personally think range training is more advanced than basic blow mechanics and so "informs" the fight at a higher level (I'm a network engineer, so forgive me if I try to compare everything to the OSI model ). Still, I could imagine a training program drawn from that perspective.

For me, range is determined by the target, hand orientation, and mechanic. For you, it's even simpler. I do suspect the final lexicon based on range would have many more entries than either yours or mine (each target would have to be named), but it may be just as valid.

And I'm certainly enjoying this dialogue and everyone's contribution -- Whether they have been fighting for 3 months or 30 years ... AoC

[dukelogan]

and just to makes things more confusing. when i develope shots they are never determined by what position my feet are in and most of my shots do not involved my hips at all.

if i get some free time i will check the videos i have on my site and give some urls/time stamps to some examples of thumb leads.

regards
logan

very similar to throwing an offside to the body up close except that the blades approach is opposite. a lazy attempt to block an offside to the armpit with your blade works, against the tumb lead the blade comes up from under your guarding blade and you get tagged

Yep, definitely need that video ...

I think I may have figured out what I was missing. I suspect that you are throwing the offside body with the shield foot driving (a "backhand", clockwise hip). By changing the hand orientation to "thumb lead", you can "dig" a little deeper and flatter. If this is the case, I was having this huge disconnect because I was visualizing the off-side body as thrown by Jade, which uses the "sword" foot to drive the blow ("forehand" hip rotation). I could not make the 'thumb lead" hand orientation work; it makes more sense now if I use the other rotation.

Thanks for taking the time to explain the blow. At least now I'm not quite as worried that I was completely missing a technique from my own vocabulary ... AoC

[carlyle]

and just to makes things more confusing. when i develope shots they are never determined by what position my feet are in and most of my shots do not involved my hips at all.

Spoken like the true contrarian you are, sir ...

I suspect that what I call hip you might see as something else. In the videos I've watched, your technique is well grounded and I see the forms I expect -- including the hip. Now, what I've viewed has most often depicted you either on the offensive or in the clinch, so you probably use less hip contribution in those exchanges (the first can draw from your forward movement, the latter you may shorthand with shoulder and torso leans). The key, I think, is that there is still a distinct rotation in each blow -- the trick with watching any high-end fighter is reading the subtlety of the contribution at any point in the chain.

Still, you are the duke, so if you say you don't use your hips, I'm happy to let you go on believing that ...

With friendship,

Alfred

[Kilkenny]

Your Grace there's also range.

Nope . See, that's a naming convention breakdown, because the blow is still a false edge strike.

I wouldn't be too hard on him, Gavin. Range is an integral component, so if someone wanted to base his vocabulary on range and target, he could probably omit the edge, too. I personally think range training is more advanced than basic blow mechanics and so "informs" the fight at a higher level (I'm a network engineer, so forgive me if I try to compare everything to the OSI model ). Still, I could imagine a training program drawn from that perspective.

For me, range is determined by the target, hand orientation, and mechanic. For you, it's even simpler. I do suspect the final lexicon based on range would have many more entries than either yours or mine (each target would have to be named), but it may be just as valid.

And I'm certainly enjoying this dialogue and everyone's contribution -- Whether they have been fighting for 3 months or 30 years ... AoC

I don't mean to be hard on anyone - Bastior, if I was in any sense offensive, my apologies, it was not intended.

I'm approaching this discussion as one where my purpose is to identify the foundation building blocks in the simplest and most basic terms so as to allow translation from any one lexicon into any other.

[Bastior]

No offense taken.

B

[raito]

I don't think that there can be any more standardized lingo than there is, say, between boxing and karate in describing punching mechanics. Still, an interesting excercise.

As for those blows with the other edge, I'll occasionally throw a blow (generally with my right hand), that is offside, hitting with the back edge.

I fight a lot of two sword, and most opponents are righty shield guys. If I can catch them throwing an onside shot (especially low), I can actively strike down at their weapon with my right hand. Usually I'd maintain a bind to keep their sword out of the picture and counter with the left. But sometimes, especially if they hold their shield edge on to me, it's easier to just pull my right hand up and hit with the back edge. It's a bit unusual for me to do this, because I generally block their right hand blows with my left, or do something else entirely.

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

I'll agree that "offside wraps" by any name are pretty rare birds. I can't really document that I've ever actually used one, but I do work them on the pell from time to time, making sure they're in the repertoire and available should someone present the opportunity.

Duke Uther has one that he brings out from time to time, especially when fighting a legged opponent. I always feel a little happy when he brings it out on me because it represents going "deep into the bag".

I think it's a subtype of what Duke Logan is talking about - it actually hits like a left-handed "basic" wrap to the head would. The opponent being legged is actually pretty important as gravity and position compensate somewhat for the "bizzare" - actually literally a screwball motion - mechanics required to deliver a stout blow inside out like this.

[Alex Baird]

I've taken to using "false edge" as a nod to the WMA terminology, although I don't know where they get it from. And I've never quite understood what about it is "false"

DiGrassi also speaks of the "true fight" vs the "false fight". Not that the fighting itself is false, but a "false fight" is the use of feints and deceptive techniques ("falses"). I suspect the edge terminology stems from a similar mindset.