neo-classic spaulders re: bar mace mazza3.JPG

[mackenzie]

Hi,

In the discussion on bar maces, Mac attached a jpg of an early 14C illumination. http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... a3_181.jpg The knight with the mace is wearing what I will call "neo-classic spaulders", for want of the correct term. This image is the earliest medieval representation of this style of upper arm defence that I can remember seeing.

I was wondering if anyone could tell me more about the illumination that the jpg comes from?

Would this be considered evidence of this style of shoulder defence in the early 14th Century?

Or are the spaulders iconographic signals that the knights are Roman or possibly classical Greek warriors?


Thanks,
mackenzie

-edit note: I have removed the period at the end of the URL the link should now work. Thank you for pointing out the error and fix.

[Andrew Young]

Picture isnt working for me....

[Derian le Breton]

Picture isnt working for me....

Remove the period from the end of the url:

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... a3_181.jpg

-Donasian.

[bairdec]

I don't know where that particular image is from, but the Hungarian Illuminated Chronicle shows similar spaulders on a handful of guys that were Hungarians, and not Greeks or Romans. The Hungarian Illuminated Chronicle was written around 1350.

[Mac]

mackenzie,

Here's what the caption says.

Scuola boulognese, c 1320=1330
Codice Sallustiano; Miniatura con
l'uccisione dei congiurati
catilinari (vedi anche le figg. 30-31)
Firenze, Riccardiana

Note that the figs. 30 and 31 are the pics of the mace that I posted in the other thread.

These "neo-classical pauldrons" appear frequently in 14th c. art. I am always torn over the question of weather we should take them literally or not.

Mac

[mackenzie]

Thanks everyone for the new information.

The Hungarian Illuminated Chronicle sounds interesting I will have to see if I can find it.

My apology on the URL. I will try and remember to test the links in the post in when I preview.

thanks,
mackenzie

[bairdec]

If you want to look at the Chronicle (aka Chronicum Pictum, or Képes Krónika),here's a couple good starting points:

http://www.kepeskronika.net/en.htm
http://www.hung-art.hu/frames-e.html?/english/zmisc/miniatur/14_sz/kronika/

I also have a bunch of the illuminations that I cribbed from various places on my Picasa account:
<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/bairdec/KPesKrNika?feat=embedwebsite">here</a>

I really need to get around to adding captions to the images.

[mackenzie]

If you want to look at the Chronicle (aka Chronicum Pictum, or Képes Krónika),here's a couple good starting points:

http://www.kepeskronika.net/en.htm
http://www.hung-art.hu/frames-e.html?/english/zmisc/miniatur/14_sz/kronika/

I also have a bunch of the illuminations that I cribbed from various places on my Picasa account:
<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/bairdec/KPesKrNika?feat=embedwebsite">here</a>

I really need to get around to adding captions to the images.

Wow. A number of these images are simple amazing both in visual and informational content. Thank you for pointing these out.

Mackenzie

[white mountain armoury]

I made a similar set years ago based on a relief from Italy,
I will dig around for the info.

[Andrew Young]

These "neo-classical pauldrons" appear frequently in 14th c. art. I am always torn over the question of weather we should take them literally or not.
Mac

Maybe rather than approaching it from the either / or standpoint, one approach (a sort of historical comprimise) would be to use some sort of leather or semi-stiff fabric that could be applied over a more conventional period spaulder to achieve the intended look.

Or, to tuck the fabric or leather up under the spaulder cap.

If its artistic lisense than Im totally wrong, but if its a literal interpretation, than at least this idea is within the realm of a plausible construction.

It rather stands to reason that given the frequency of these spaulders, someone, somewhere surely tried to make a real pair (life imitating art). But such an approach might not provide as much protection as more conventional spaulders of the time, so a sort of costume applique approach might have been attempted.

This is sort of one of those unprovables, but not hard to imagine scenarios, give that costume itself during the late 14th century into the 15th century is punctuated with a classical look, pleating, linenfolds etc.

[mackenzie]

Caving of neo-classic shoulders found hiding here in the archive.

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... le_233.jpg