Tactical info after your "dead"

Vladimir · Post by **Vladimir** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:02 pm

This weekend I was told that if I am struck in a melee I should yell "GOOD, VLAD'S DEAD"

However, I was also taught that when you are "dead" in a melee you are not to discuss or reveal tactical information to anyone still on the field.

Isn't telling my teammates that I am dead revealing tactical information? Therefore, illegal at the least and dishonorable at the worst?

This was small unit tactics, so a single person could make a difference.

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:04 pm

Uhh.. if your teammates don't view you falling the hell over as a sign.. your yelling "I'm dead" isn't going to be any more of a "clue" to em.

Boomlaor · Post by **Boomlaor** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:31 pm

I think it's ok, under the theory that if you really had just been skewered with a sharp piece of metal you would cry out in pain, or make a gurgling noise, or something which would clue your buddies in to your demise. As long as it's a quick "I'm DEAD" I think it's ok. A grey area would be those who specify "I'm dead from behind!" or shout "Barbeque" (signifying that there is someone in your backyard, and that they're cooking, i.e. dead from behind). That really is tactical information, though I hear people encouraged to yell Barbeque when killed from behind all the time.

audax · Post by **audax** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:32 pm

No, telling your teamates isn't revealing the tactical plan. It's just letting people know you're dead and no longer in the fight. That way someone else can take your place and/or your commander or second in command can take appropriate action.

adamstjohn · Post by **adamstjohn** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:09 pm

I think it's a little cheesy and it would be better to just say "Dead!".

Suppose a small unit has two spearmen. The specific knowledge that the other spear has gone to meet his maker might be of intense interest to the surviving one, and he may not be able to see if he is busy.

Saying "Barbeque" or similar is highly cheesy. I would not allow it on my field if I were MIC. In fact, I see no reason for a player killed from behind to say anything at all, unless he is simultaneously threatened from the front.

Vladimir · Post by **Vladimir** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:22 pm

As long as it's a quick "I'm DEAD" I think it's ok.

I have no problem with that. Signifying that a blow has been well struck is for the benefit of our individual opponent, not our own team or his/her own team. Shouting "GOOD" (or I'M DEAD) very loudly is the equivalent of screaming in pain in our game. Once you say "good" I feel one should be silent.

Really though, in a real fight, how many of us would have the presence of mind to shout "OH GOD, THE PAIN! VLAD IS DEAD. I HAVE BEEN STRUCK!"

More likely, if you could think of identifying yourself at all it would be "MY LEG! MY ****ING LEG!! I'M HIT!" Who's hit? Which side turns to look?

Better in my mind to simply yell "GOOD" and fall over or retreat from the field.

However, if a unit commander tells us to do so in a melee, which is better? Obey an order which I feel violates the rules and more importantly the spirit of our game? Or go against the order and have a cleaner conscience? In this case, I lean towards the latter.

Vladimir · Post by **Vladimir** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:25 pm

Barbeque?!?

If you shout that in a melee my first thought would be WTF is he talking about. Even if I knew you were behind me.

It would never even occur to me in the slightest that it could possibly mean that there was an enemy behind me.

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:48 pm

Obey an order which I feel violates the rules and more importantly the spirit of our game? Or go against the order and have a cleaner conscience?

From your other posts, I have a feeling you will choose the right one.

Anton · Post by **Anton** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:30 pm

Barbecue is a code word in the Outlands for bad guys in the backfield.

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:05 pm

I prefer "GOOD! Sweet shot Vlad!" as I'm going down. I don't give a rats hindquarter about tactics once I'm in the scrum. 90% of tactics happen before point of engagement anyway. I do like to recognize a worthy opponent who just bested me. It's probably as much his team hearing a psycological boost as my team knowing that there is now a gap (which they got from 'GOOD') and that someone I might think is named 'Vlad' if I recognized the helm and heraldry happened to get in a decent strike.

Come to think of it 99% of the time I just say "GOOD Leg" or "GOOD face thrust." I rarely have time to recognize an individual opponent unless I do it before the lines colide.

Sean

Edit: Tactical info that should NOT be done is walking back to rez point in a woods battle and saying "I just got killed by 5 members of group X and they formed up with group Y and are cutting into our left flank. Send more troops that way." THAT is disrespectful to the comanders who are trying to fight this more like it would have been fought in period. and is just a cheese thing to do. You're dead. Gather troops and lead them back in to where you died yourself but using death as a cheap way to communicate tactics is sucky.

Just my oppinion after all.

Sean

Agnarr · Post by **Agnarr** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:07 pm

guys that intinally keep shouting after dead and they are on the ground are what i have a problem with.

Eirik · Post by **Eirik** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:14 pm

I say "DEAD!" and walk off the field....

...and don't tell anyone about the archer that moved up during the hold. Not my son, who would die to that archer; not Mad Dog... who could have made toast of that archer, not the General as I walked past him, sword over my head. I'd tell nary a soul.

Or at least, that is what I did last Saturday during the Fort Battle

.
It is a game of honor, after all.

mordreth · Post by **mordreth** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:38 pm

Anton wrote:Barbecue is a code word in the Outlands for bad guys in the backfield.

Years ago at pennsic I made it into a backfield, thought about it, walked over behind a fully engaged unit, and screamed
"Crap, they're behind us" a number of the members of the shield wall stopped, and turned to look

Your pikemen and file closers should be worrying about the back door.

D. Sebastian · Post by **D. Sebastian** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:48 pm

What Eirik said.

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:49 pm

Dead? I fall down, or, in some instances, withdraw from the fight in a manner that interferes with no one. My side wants to know what happened to me, they need to be aware of what's going on, just like I should have been. The most I'll say is "Good shot!" so the other guy knows I'm pulling out in recognition of his blow, not just moving to a new spot where I'm not getting hit :roll:

There was one occasion in a battle where, during a hold, I gave my boys a heraldry lesson. You could hear the target lock tone as I identified the heraldry of one particular unit. But it wasn't tactical, it was just a knight teaching his squires heraldry..... ok... I only did it once, and it was just such a perfect moment :lol:

Gavin

Saritor · Post by **Saritor** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:53 am

Anton wrote:Barbecue is a code word in the Outlands for bad guys in the backfield.

Specifically, it's "There's someone in our back yard, and they're cookin'."

Part of the reason for it is that we get *one* word to shout when we're dead.

So, "Dead!" to let the wingmen know you're toasty, or "Barbecue!" for DFB.

When the 6'5", angry, 300-lb uberduke jumps on to the shield wall you're in and starts doling out the love, you yell "Ohshit!", but so fast it's only one word with a single syllable...

Armand d'Alsace · Post by **Armand d'Alsace** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:09 am

IMO, the one thing you're allowed to say is "good".
Now "Arrgh," "Nnngh" and the occasional shap intake of breath is also fine.

Anything that constitutes communicating with your side after you're dead, and that happens the instant you realize that you've been struck good or KFB is breaking the rules.

Glaukos the Athenian · Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:08 am

D. Sebastian wrote:What Eirik said.

+ 2

D. Sebastian · Post by **D. Sebastian** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:40 am

What Arngrim said.

losthelm · Post by **losthelm** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:05 am

it depends on the situation.
At pennisic there is not DFB for heavy weapons many people with continue to strike with increasing force untill your down this can take a few moments for some of the more experianced fighters after all Sir uber duke can cause a lot of chaos in the backfield even if they are just leged while still giving tactical information.
Calling out dead serves to both inform your opponent and your comrads.
its safety with a tactical application.

For rapier combat DFB is common in larger melee situations depending on region and Sinario. still with Calibration issues and heat of the moment calling out dead from actual combat serves the same purpose its about safety with a side of tactics.

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:30 am

Honestly, I could see this one going either way. I don't think there's going to be a right answer here.

Stephen du Bois · Post by **Stephen du Bois** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:55 am

Here is my take on it. 1) Dead men can't talk, period. Sounding off with simply saying dead, good, well struck ect.. acknowledges to your opponent and his friends that they can stop striking you, this is acceptable and expected under the precepts of the game.

Now my take on sounding of with Vlad's dead ( and if you are the Vlad that I think you are) means you have exceeded the courtesy of the game and told your chain of command that a Knight is down and one of their hot stick capital weapons fighters is out of play, that is important tactical information. Your chain of command needs to figure this out on its own.

Now, all that being said if you are in the process of extricating yourself from the fight and your commander says "go kill that guy" I do believe it is perfectly acceptable to say "sorry I'm dead"

Just my 2 coin.

Stephen

raito · Post by **raito** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:24 am

There's 2 balancing forces here.

One is acknowledging the good blow so that your opponent doesn't keep trying to hit you, but goes on to the next guy and hits him. Letting him know his blow was good is courtesy.

The other is not unduly alerting people on your side as to what's happening if they're not looking.

I'll usually call the shot good to satisfy the first.

I'll start yelling before I die in those situations where it's not obvious to my fellows that I'm engaged (such as at a barbecue).

I'll answer any reasonable question as to whether I'm dead, wounded, etc., as sometimes it's hard to tell. It would be nice if others did the same.

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:26 am

BIG difference between yelling "DEAD / GOOD / Etc." and "Dave is dead on the left flank!" - if you are Dave.

The first tells the opponent "OK, stop hitting me!" the second is giving information for your side to tke advantage of. Kind of like being killed in a res battle and telling people where your line is weak as you walk back to res point.

Now, if his buddies are paying attention, when Dave yells "GOOD!" and drops, the guy next to him (who is alive) will yell "Dave's dead!", "Shield up!" "OH CRAP!" or something appropriate.

.

Paul the Small · Post by **Paul the Small** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:30 am

Once again it's something that depends on the situation. Sometimes safety dictates you do more than just call it and fall.

If I'm in the shield wall I just yell good, fall and cover up. If I have a spear I yell good and make my way off the field. Unless people keep hitting me I'll yell something along the lines of, "I'm dead please quit hitting me."

Saturday during the second fort battle I was locked tight against the wall and had so many spears pulling on my shield that I couldn't fall. I had to yell several times before they would turn me loose, then there were so many people in the press that I had to back out through my own lines because there was no room to fall.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:31 am

If I am letting my killer know I am dead, then my shout out is for his benifit.

If my signal is for the benifit of my forces then it is cheating. If I am commanding and I die, I don't get to tell everyone I died and they need to take commands from so and so. I am dead. If I was the anchor on the flank and I die, then I don't get to tell the next guy in line, who may not have seen me die, that the flank is now open and he needs to close it. I am dead.

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:32 am

But you didn't yell "I'm dead and there is a spear guy here someone fill the line"

You yelled "Dead" or "good", right?

That's the difference. the extra info.

(And I have heard guys yelling "I'm dead on the left flank - here they come" while they on dead on the ground.)

.

Vladimir · Post by **Vladimir** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:49 am

Stephen du Bois wrote: Now my take on sounding of with Vlad's dead ( and if you are the Vlad that I think you are) means you have exceeded the courtesy of the game and told your chain of command that a Knight is down and one of their hot stick capital weapons fighters is out of play

Stephen

I'm not that Vladimir. I don't think he even posts here. I'm not a knight nor am I a particulary hot stick.

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:01 am

Dilan wrote:But you didn't yell "I'm dead and there is a spear guy here someone fill the line"

You yelled "Dead" or "good", right?

That's the difference. the extra info.

(And I have heard guys yelling "I'm dead on the left flank - here they come" while they on dead on the ground.)

.

ahhh.. I hear voices from Beyond the Grave.... :shock:

That's not just cheesy, that's one of those stinky cheeses, or maybe yogurt.

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:15 am

Vlad that is certainly not something that I instructed you to do. Nothing wrong with saying Dead, it will certainly help a little will getting hit again but I agree that your teamates should be aware.

As far as the BBQ comment....i'm sorry that that is just funny as hell. That is just another sypthom caused by the disease that is Death from Behind. (I know, I know it's cultural, you all love it, yada yada).

Crying "BBQ!" would certianly pull me out of my medival experience a lot faster than just about anything else.

Also it would make me hungry.hhhhhh, BBQ!

I think if I lived out there and I was the DFBer I think I would reply "BISCUITS!" as in "I got yours, and here comes the Gravy!" :twisted:

Baron Alcyoneus · Post by **Baron Alcyoneus** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:30 am

Baron Alejandro wrote:Honestly, I could see this one going either way. I don't think there's going to be a right answer here.

If you are trying to communicate with the opponent that might hit you again, okay.

If you are trying to communicate with your teammates, not so okay.

Sigifrith Hauknefr · Post by **Sigifrith Hauknefr** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:51 am

I think "DEAD" plus one word is OK. A whole phrase is clearly wrong. I've actually never seen anyone using dying words or dying tactically to any advantage (not saying it doesn't happen)

I actually think that talking tactics during HOLDS is a much more pervasive (and effective) "cheat".

It's so pervasive, that I think it might be a useful rule change to just allow it.
I mean it's impossible to stop "surveying the field" during a hold (even if it were disallowed, which AFAIK it is not), so it's not even true that holds would be "tactics free" if we were mandated to be silent.

Of course, CALLING a "tactical" hold is the worst of the three- much worse than shrugging blows even (IMHO). But this is quite rare - in fact - I have only heard rumors of it.

Vladimir · Post by **Vladimir** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:24 pm

BdeB wrote:Vlad that is certainly not something that I instructed you to do.

No, you never said, hinted, or alluded to anything of the sort recently or in the past.

adamstjohn · Post by **adamstjohn** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:32 pm

It matters not how many words are used.

When someone tells you "kill from behind", they are telling you "I killed you a second ago". You are not just dead, you are ALREADY dead.

Any kind of safety call is OK. ANYTHING which gives information on who is dead or how they died is gaming the rules and is very cheesy.

Sigifrith Hauknefr · Post by **Sigifrith Hauknefr** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:00 pm

Yeah, I amend my statement to include only deaths "from the front". Although I would not sweat someone who uttered an exclamation of frustration upon being killed from behind. Even if it happens to carry some minor tactical info. Even assassins screw up sometimes and let their victims scream...