First sabaton

Qwertypolk · Post by **Qwertypolk** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:02 pm

Just finished my first sabaton (also my first ever articulated piece) It's not perfect, some of the lames have small gaps between, but nothing major

Was hoping you could offer some tips for making my other foot work better :wink:

Edit: Alot of you say it's not armour until you've bled on it, well if you look at the heel of the second picture, you'll know it's armour

[img]http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd231/qwertypolk/sabaton002.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd231/qwertypolk/sabaton003.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd231/qwertypolk/sabaton004.jpg[/img]

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:20 pm

Looking good. The big thing i notice is the plate edges. You'll bleed much less if you flatten the sheared edges and round your corners. Ideally you shoudl be able to run your finger down the edge without feeling any 'bite' from the metal.

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:21 pm

Looking good. The big thing i notice is the plate edges. You'll bleed much less if you flatten the sheared edges and round your corners. Ideally you shoudl be able to run your finger down the edge without feeling any 'bite' from the metal.

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:39 pm

Thanks for the pics.

What helps me, is to use nuts and bolts first.
Make sure everything fits and works before going to the rivets.

I like to mark the rivet holes as it is clamped together.
When it is bolted together I mark and trim the lames to fit.
Un-bolt, trim then sand the edges and round the corners.

Some dishing on the toes help to form them more.
Also hammering the lames over a piece of pipe helps to smooth them out.

Best of luck on your sabatons.
My first were quite rough.
Did you use the Mike Yancy patterns on the Archive pattern page?

Hal

Qwertypolk · Post by **Qwertypolk** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 5:46 pm

Thanks Tom, I'll be sure to do that on the next set, I was in a rush to get those done, I started drawing on the plates at 5pm and had them ready for riveting by midnight, then I went to bed and finished the riveting this morning, so I was pretty worn out by the time it came to rounding edges. I usually do, but this time I just forgot :lol:

Thanks for the comment Hal, I've got to say, it was those ones you made for Nissan recently that finally got me off my arse to try it out.
I did use nuts and bolts at first, but when it came to riveting, I noticed the nails I was using were too large for the holes, so I had to make them larger using a blunt drill bit in a drill press, so they got a little bent out of shape, and that's considering they wernt the best to begin with :roll:

And yup, I used the Mike Yancy pattern, forgot to mention :oops:

I'm thinking of making a pair of mitten gauntlets next, so I can improve my articulation a bit more, also, my bought pair are falling apart now, so I kinda need some :lol:

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Sat Apr 04, 2009 11:37 pm

Did you use one of these type of tools to place between the lames?

It holds the spacing to prevent the rivets from being too tight.

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/h ... erTool.jpg

Hal

Qwertypolk · Post by **Qwertypolk** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 3:57 am

I didn't, no, never even thought of using such a thing :lol:

what thickness of metal do you suggest using? I'm sure I could make one with my nibbler quite easily

And Hal, that was shameless self advertising :wink:

Gaston de Clermont · Post by **Gaston de Clermont** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 8:07 am

That's your first articulation?! Fantastic!

The spacer approach does work. I get a bit obsessed about my articulation being precise so I do a couple things differently. First I use the same size rivets- I generally use roofing nails- for all the fittings and the final articulation. It reduces the little bit of slop you get from using anything smaller. Since roofing nails have ridges up the sides they hold pretty well. Sometimes too well. I also use them when I fire a piece, since I mostly work in spring steels. Instead of using a spacer I use a very light cross pein hammer- well technically what I use is a brad nail hammer. It spreads the head nicely, and the light weight keeps it from fattening the shank and causing the plates to bind.

If you can find a shape that approximates what you want to put the sabatons over, a few whacks with a soft mallet even at this point could tighten up the gaps between your lames. You can also do it from the inside over an anvil face, though you have to take some care not to imprint the shape of the adjacent lames too strongly when you do. It's kind of like ironing a shirt that's already folded.
Here are some links to my sabaton work- there are more if you want to dig around my blog:
http://burgundianhours.blogspot.com/200 ... leted.html
http://burgundianhours.blogspot.com/200 ... art-1.html
http://burgundianhours.blogspot.com/200 ... right.html

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 8:19 am

I use 3 sizes of the spacer tools.
18ga. 22ga. and 28ga. depending on the gap I need.

You wedge it between the lames with the rivet in the slot.
Peen your rivet and pull it out.

It will also work on your gauntlets.

Oh yes, I insert a shameless plug every chance I get. :wink:

Hal

Qwertypolk · Post by **Qwertypolk** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:04 pm

Thanks for the encouragement Gaston, though I'll say yours look one hell of a lot better :lol:

I'd be scared of doing one with so many lames, for starts, I had enough problems with just those 4 in stopping them from slipping off each other, and secondly, they're hard to polish and I'm lazy

If you have a look at the inside of the sabatons, you'll see I've used roofing nails as well, though I do it 'cause my only alternative are pop rivets, which look ugly and aren't authentic enough for me.
The only foot shaped thing I could use at the moment is my foot, and I don't think it'd enjoy being hit :lol:

I'll maybe pull out some rubble from our pile and try chiseling a foot shaped object sometime soon.

18g? what sort of articulation needs 18g spacers? :lol:

Is this an alternative to using washers, or something to do as well as?

Here's some more piccies:

Below: another picture of the first sabaton before riveting and polishing

Below: a picture of the second sabaton when I took it for a test

The articulation isn't as good on this one (the second one) but the lames are alot tighter, barely any gaps

The first sabaton (background) and the new one in pieces (foreground)

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:25 pm

Yoda say: A shameless plug a shameful hole fixes.

An excellent starter spacing tool is a few inches of steel strapping. It's thin, durable, and easily enough drilled, punched, or sheared to make its bifurcated end.

Tin can metal may be thinner yet, and aluminum beverage can metal is definitely thinner. There would be the desired gauges of your spacer tools.

Edges warped from shearing can be restored by malleting them on a flat surface, or by more cautious use of a hard hammer face on that surface. But try a wooden or a deadblow mallet first.

Qwertypolk · Post by **Qwertypolk** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 7:54 pm

Hmm.. I'm pretty sure I can quite easily cut up some drinks cans, and the nibbler should have no bother shaping them, so should be nice and easy to make. Ta Konstantin

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:47 am

Yes... thick spacers are required for sloppy articulations.
As when they are to be painted.

I also used my Y-Stake to flare the edges of the lames so they will not scrape on the next ones.

The Y-Stake also provides a flair on the inside of the lames so they bottom out out and prevent gaping in the relaxed position.

It is all a matter of fit, form and function to meet the clients required needs.
One must fit the sabatons to the clients shoes and their particular wear patterns.

This is what I do when making a custom pair of sabatons.
I notice the shape and wear patterns of the shoes and fit the sabatons accordingly.

Funny thing is... the left and right foot are never the same.
Food for thought for you newbies.

Hal

And the Y-Stakes used:

Qwertypolk · Post by **Qwertypolk** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:42 am

More shameless advertising there Hal :lol:

If I had the money to afford the shipping from the US I'd buy so many of your tools :cry:

Ah, so the 18g spacer was used for Nissan's sabatons?
I'll be doing the riveting on the second set of sabatons soon, just have to clean some paint off one lame and finish polishing, so I'll give that a go

SyrRaim · Post by **SyrRaim** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:36 pm

Here's my first set. 18ga. stainless all hand fitted over Brian Price's ankle boots.
Syr Raim

Qwertypolk · Post by **Qwertypolk** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:52 am

Very nice looking SyrRaim, any chance of a bigger picture I can look at? and more angles if possible

SyrRaim · Post by **SyrRaim** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:52 pm

Here you go!

SyrRaim · Post by **SyrRaim** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:26 pm

Here you go! part 1.
Actually I do have to give credit to Doug Strong for his fine pattern to work from, I just added the heel plate.
Regards,
Syr Raim

SyrRaim · Post by **SyrRaim** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:37 pm

Part 2, just one more picture to go!

Halberd, do you make these "Y" stakes? What's the price?
Syr Raim

SyrRaim · Post by **SyrRaim** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:41 pm

Here the last one!

Syr Raim

Qwertypolk · Post by **Qwertypolk** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:21 pm

My life will end when I'm capable of making sabatons of such fine craftsmanship.
Any chance you could send those patterns you mentioned my way?

Gaston de Clermont · Post by **Gaston de Clermont** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:36 pm

Doug sells his sabaton pattern here:
http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/books/metalwork.html
I made my first sabatons with his pattern and learned some things from it.

Qwertypolk · Post by **Qwertypolk** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:42 pm

Bah... you've given me yet more to spend my over-stretched budget on now :lol:

Meh, armour comes over buying a car

Pitbull Armory · Post by **Pitbull Armory** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:07 pm

Hi there Quertypolk, Looking good there, An Important tip I learned from Talbot recently is to build things that there are 2 of, at the same time. Like, Form the toe on left, then form the toe on right. Shape lames left, Shape lames right, Articulate Left, Articulate right, etc, It helps make both pieces much more similar in shape and function. Also dont try to free form your lames, get a 4 inch pipe and a soft hammer and shape them all the same. Keep up the good work.

Take care

Pitbull

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:14 pm

Thanks guys for the sabaton pics.
I think sabatons fit so much better over period shoes.

This is one of my early patterns you might look at Qwertypolk.
Perhaps it will give you some ideas.

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/h ... ttern1.tif
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/h ... ttern2.tif
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/h ... ttern2.tif

Also cutting them out on poster board and placing them on the shoes help.
You will see where they need to be trimmed.

Have fun and we look forward to seeing your next pair.

Hal

Qwertypolk · Post by **Qwertypolk** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:48 pm

Thanks for the tip Pitbull, I'll do that on these gauntlets I have planned, as soon as I have enough steel to do them :roll:

I replied to that pm you sent me, but I guess there must be a problem with me PMing you, looks like the archive doesn't like us talking :lol:

Thanks for the Pattern Hal. I'll nick some greyboard from the college's art department when the easter holidays end and try patterning with that and split pins before I move on to steel from now on, also gives me some stuff to mess around with

Quick question to anyone willing to answer. Do the right and left sabatons differ in any way? I made mine to the exact same pattern the exact same way, I just moved the belts and hinges around and haven't noticed any problems

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:28 am

I don't know about Mike Yancy's but mine do.

Turn the pattern over for the other foot.
Do this when laying them out on steel.
I like to mark with a magic marker R and L on the steel pieces.
Also mark R and L on the appropriate side of the pattern.

My toe pieces are opposites also, especially after dishing them.
You will see this if you follow the contour of the shoe.

Hal

Qwertypolk · Post by **Qwertypolk** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:33 am

I'll have to have a go at making some period shoes then, it's something I've always wanted to try anyway