The Monetization of The Hobby

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:10 pm

Over the past couple of years, I have sold replica coins which represent over 50 pounds of worth. All told, I have sold several thousand individual coin replicas to every region of the US and several persons outside the US. These have ostensibly been hoarded, won and lost in gambling, used to show gratitude, distributed in ransoms, used to pay troops or even hire them, and given as gifts or even used as barter tools. I am curious about what you think the effect of this sort of material culture is in the re-enactment and chivalric sport community.

John
Jehan de Pelham, ecuyer and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:48 pm

It's an excellent and useful tool which has in my opinion not yet achieved its full potential, which will be seen more when such has penetrated further (and yes, I do intend to eventually avail myself).

aegisvdk · Post by **aegisvdk** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:48 pm

I think that all the uses you stated above enhance the experience. they add flavor and something someone can touch and say " hey this looks like a real one !"

Many merchants make a living off of the SCA , and i don't hold that against them, as long as they are honest and don't screw people over. their presence adds flavor too.

what would not is either getting actually paid to fight OR on a similar vein corporate sponsorship

My squire brothers and i have joked about it on and off for years.... " dude those guys with the mountain dew logo's on their shields are NUMB!"

if one go paid to perform in any aspect of the sport (fighting fencing archery) it would ruin it as it tends to wok on the honor system.

IT could carry over with your coins paying people to fight, but seeing as its not "real" money the temptation to cheat would be much less im thinking.

Cian of Storvik · Post by **Cian of Storvik** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:30 pm

Sadly unless you have other people who are also into your period and playing a game of barter and monies, they hold little interest or value.
Not many people I know of in the SCA are interested in that level of detail in their accessories.
I've handed out a few of your 14th cen coins to individuals as gifts, with some amount of appreciation, but most people don't consider them much longer then they would if they found a canadian penny on the ground.
I understand it, as I have little or no interest in coins from after my period, (they don't fit my persona and thus they have no value to me).

On the other hand, I have accepted your coins in exchange for real goods as tender. (rather then $15-20 or whatever the cost of the item was, I allowed the person to pay me in your coins <-to the value of what I would have had to purchase the coins at). And I made out because he through in an extra coin. I was happy to do it.

In the future I may make it so that I will ONLY offer my works for barter or period coins. But economic times are tight.
-Cian

Hjlmr inn Danski · Post by **Hjlmr inn Danski** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:40 pm

Greetings,

It's all treasure to me. It's a rich viking that turns his nose up at coin of any sort.

Hjlmr inn Danski

Derian le Breton · Post by **Derian le Breton** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:10 pm

Hjlmr, did you see the coins we made for Vik and Inga? They're a Viking's dream...

Arion really hit the nail on the head with his die work. His engraving skills are getting good super fast!

-Derian.

Brandr · Post by **Brandr** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:12 pm

I have used your coins for a number of things since I received. I have given them as gifts, as ransom, even used them for gambling. The most satisfying use I have made of them was this year at Gulf Wars. It was following the youth combat melee tournament. The Gleann Abhann Order of the Sable Banner (melee fighting award) had sponsored a 5-man melee (ended up a 3-man because of numbers) tournament. Watching those young combatants strive and fight for no other reason than the joy of combat wish inspiring and wonderful. During that tournament two of them impressed me greatly, one young man with a single act that demonstrated chivalric largesse at an unexpected level and the other, a young lady, whose pose and skill were an example of prowess greatly beyond my expectations. I chose to present each of them a coin after the tournament and tell them that they had impressed me that day. Each of them offer thanks and held the coin like a prize hard won. While any of a hundred tokens would have likely sufficed for the moment, the use of the period coin for me greatly enhanced the 'feel' of the moment.

Thanks for enabling me to experience that Jehan.

To directly address your question of the material culture, perhaps the greater game is not overtly influenced, I find that my personal level and that of my closest friends enhanced as we find opportunities to use them.

Hjlmr inn Danski · Post by **Hjlmr inn Danski** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:14 pm

Greetings,

Derian le Breton wrote:Hjlmr, did you see the coins we made for Vik and Inga? They're a Viking's dream...

Arion really hit the nail on the head with his die work. His engraving skills are getting good super fast!

-Derian.

No. Please show me. Do you have pictures?

Arion who? Surely not Arion the Blind?

Hjlmr inn Danski

Blackoak · Post by **Blackoak** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:02 pm

While I do not have any of Jehan's, I have some replica coins that I have given as largess. While of no monetary value, it does add that little something extra.

I really enjoyed when they used to have the Gulf Wars coins that you bought at Troll for $1 a piece, and the merchants accepted them. They could turn them back in for cash. That I thought was very cool and would like to see returned.

Uric

Gaston de Clermont · Post by **Gaston de Clermont** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:26 am

Every bit helps. You're doing a good thing.

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:08 am

Cian of Storvik wrote:Sadly unless you have other people who are also into your period and playing a game of barter and monies, they hold little interest or value.
Not many people I know of in the SCA are interested in that level of detail in their accessories.
I've handed out a few of your 14th cen coins to individuals as gifts, with some amount of appreciation, but most people don't consider them much longer then they would if they found a canadian penny on the ground.
I understand it, as I have little or no interest in coins from after my period, (they don't fit my persona and thus they have no value to me).

On the other hand, I have accepted your coins in exchange for real goods as tender. (rather then $15-20 or whatever the cost of the item was, I allowed the person to pay me in your coins <-to the value of what I would have had to purchase the coins at). And I made out because he through in an extra coin. I was happy to do it.

In the future I may make it so that I will ONLY offer my works for barter or period coins. But economic times are tight.
-Cian

Our Landsknecht group has muster, rank, and paymaster once a year. I've been paid in everything from pre-third Reich German coins to repros.. perhaps even Jehan's repros, I have no way of knowing.

So yeah.. they come in quite handy. When we are setting up a game of knucklebones on the barrel head at a demo, it's handy to be able to drag out "period" coinage, rather than quarters that have been tarnished to make em look old, or foil wrapped chocolate coins.

Derian le Breton · Post by **Derian le Breton** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 3:35 am

Gaston de Clermont wrote:Every bit helps. You're doing a good thing.

Bingo.

We've had coins out here for about 15 years, and the West has had them even longer. While they don't permeate every part of our game, many warbands pay their fighters in coin, and largess coins are rather common (every reign gets 240 custom designed coins, the West has a similar setup.) Gambling is very frequent.

FWIW, I've seen your coins only once here. Sell more!

-Derian.

Derian le Breton · Post by **Derian le Breton** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 11:25 am

Hjlmr inn Danski wrote:No. Please show me. Do you have pictures?

I don't, but I do have a few of their coins in my collection. I'll take some photos.

Arion who? Surely not Arion the Blind?

<A HREF="http://wiki.antir.sca.org/index.php?title=Arion_the_Wanderer">Arion the Wanderer</A>, from Dragonslaire. He's known for having great skill with thrown weapons as well.

-Derian.

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:02 pm

I am doing the best I can, Derian! I haven't done an analysis of where my coins have sold, but I would be willing to bet that there are a lot of them in the Midrealm.

John
Jehan de Pelham, ecuyer and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

Gregoire de Lyon · Post by **Gregoire de Lyon** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:32 am

Our household uses them mostly for gambling.

Court is a fantastic place to make wagers. :lol:

Word to the wise, when a hot unbelt gets called up and your knight makes the wager that it isn't an A&S award, save your money.... (Damn insider knowlege!)

Roland Ansbacher · Post by **Roland Ansbacher** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:52 am

A few years ago, my roommate and I tried our hand at coin making, and made about 400 coins. We gave them out as pay for our Lansknecht unit, but at only fifteen or so per person, they became more of a collecter's item then a toy.

Recently, our latest Hauptmann, Sir Balin, had a thousand made, and now they are used for pay, gambling, fines, and as a token of thanks. It's also good for the kids. It used to be they would just grab a drink or clean up the camp after a bit of grumbling. Now it's more like "Sure, I'll get your beer. Five coins."

I find that as we get more and more coins, they become more and more useful, as people don't tend to hoard them. It also makes gambling a lot more fun, as we phase out all the old cheap beads we used to use. I've noticed that when people have about fifty coins, they tend to be a bit more free with them, and they circulate more.

I would like to introduce more types of period coins and an exchange system, but that is a bit down the road, as you really need to have a large circulation. The only big hurdle at this point is designing a few high quality dies, and having them made. Then all the rest. Which is a still a pretty big hurdle.

I think you're doing an awesome job, and I hope that more and more people would use them. Not necessarily as a one for one exchange for modern coinage, but rather "Hey, that's cool! I'll trade you so-and-so for that many coins."

Keep up the good work!

Sir Roland Ansbacher

Jonathan Baird · Post by **Jonathan Baird** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:32 pm

I have a little stack of your coins and I give them out to people I think are doing a good job with their kit or just nice people. They seem to be really appreciated. In fact in about a month I will probably want to buy more.

Mord · Post by **Mord** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:33 pm

Numismatics is one of the most Obsessive-Compulsive academic pursuits known. Coinage and medalions have their own series of journals and other scholarly outlets. The reading can be tedious, but useful for many interested.

As for the usage of coinage in Society, over the years, I've seen folks strike coins and then disappear. I'm surprised this skil hasn't had more wide-spread popularity, considering the amount of documentation available.

What I would do were I interested, is apply for a charter to run a Kingdom's Mint, and go from there. For the Crown to pay for various things in the "coin of the realm" would be excellent.

Mord.

Derian le Breton · Post by **Derian le Breton** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:17 pm

Mord wrote:As for the usage of coinage in Society, over the years, I've seen folks strike coins and then disappear. I'm surprised this skil hasn't had more wide-spread popularity, considering the amount of documentation available.

What I would do were I interested, is apply for a charter to run a Kingdom's Mint, and go from there.

There are chartered, active moneyers guilds in An Tir, the West, and Northshield. There was a guild in Meridies, but I believe it is now defunct. There is a small group in Ansteorra too, but I don't think they've sought guild status.

In the West and An Tir, we provide coins for every reign. They're generally given out as largesse tokens, but some have gone further. The West Kingdom Moneyers Guild and the Moneyers Guild of An Tir do a yearly joint project at An Tir/West war.

Edit: Also, while there is quite a lot of documentation regarding the final objects, there are relatively few dies and almost zero information on how the dies were made. In fact, there is quite a bit of <i>misinformation</i> about die cutting, written by people trying to explain ancient and medieval coin striking from a modern frame of mind.

Careful study of a large number of extant coins can reveal important details about how medieval dies were made. The fabric of the coins is extremely important, and pictures simply cannot provide all of the details you need to create truly accurate looking coins.

-Derian. (Fellow, Moneyer's Guild of An Tir)

Kunigunde · Post by **Kunigunde** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:54 pm

My Landsknecht unit would love to get some period coins (early 16th century German or Italian). If we had those, we could gamble in period while we're not talking to patrons.

But to answer the question, I don't think there are so many period coins out there that they are 'devalued'. If so, you'd be out of business, wouldn't you?

Ken Mondschein · Post by **Ken Mondschein** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:39 am

They are becoming debased and worthless. I demand you restore the amount of silver to what it was in St. Louis' time.

/sorry, had a comp in this.

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:40 pm

My coins are debased as hell! I strongly recommend you not try and use them if you go back in time.

John
Jehan de Pelham, ecuyer and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

Derian le Breton · Post by **Derian le Breton** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:22 pm

I sell Sterling Silver and Fine Silver coinage, but it's considerably more expensive than pewter (more expensive materials AND more work).

-Derian.

Johann ColdIron · Post by **Johann ColdIron** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:07 pm

Jehan de Pelham wrote:My coins are debased as hell! I strongly recommend you not try and use them if you go back in time.

LOL, you should put that in your promotional literature :wink:

Cillene mac Conghalaigh · Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:11 pm

The very first Estrella War I attended (I think it was â€™96 or there abouts) they had coins minted specifically for the event that you could buy at a $1 per coin rate and could use with several merchants. I actually loved this and was really disappointed this year when I went back and found they did not do this. I used to have one that I saved as a token of the event but them lost. I am very unhappy that I did. This really, really, really enhanced the experience for me and I really would like to see it come back. Iâ€™d even make a special lock box for it.

Glaukos the Athenian · Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:29 am

Jehan,

Ken's humourous remark, and Cian's story bring up a VERY important point about your coins, and any coins.
Unless made out of a precious material that brings the value of the coin to reality, a coin is a symbol. A metal check, an IOU based on something else of value, which the coin stands for.
The value of a coin made out of base metals is in the perceived value of that something else.

I think that Cian's story indicates that your efforts at making these coins so well have created a value in itself situation about your coins. They are valuable not as symbols of gold stored somewhere but as a silver coin would be valued anywhere because it was made out of Silver.

So my chivalric friend you appear to give items value upon itself, at least equal to the modern currency exchange value you ask when you sell them.

This is no small feat.

The problem is that -as stated above- not everyone is interested in the degree of detail you bring to our endeavour. But for those who do care, your coins might as well be based on gold stored somewhere in "Pelham" and used them as currency in the SCA. That is tres cool.

Lastly, how do I talk you into making some Athenian tetradrachms for me to use as tokens?.. http://images.scran.ac.uk/RB/images/thu ... 570119.jpg

Cheers!

Glaukos

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:33 pm

Glaukos, that is very high praise indeed. I will have to think on that.

Regarding Greek high relief coins, I would LOVE to be able to do them, but they would be cast, and they would be costly because of the materials. I will have to think on this, also. You're talking like a 25mm to 30mm coin that's how thick?

John
Jehan de Pelham, ecuyer and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

Derian le Breton · Post by **Derian le Breton** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:48 pm

We did a high relief hot-struck silver Greek coin recently (for the 2009 ANA money show). I'd be happy to share the technical details if you're interested.

-Derian.

Bob H · Post by **Bob H** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:44 pm

Jehan de Pelham wrote:My coins are debased as hell! I strongly recommend you not try and use them if you go back in time.

John
Jehan de Pelham, ecuyer and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

That makes them doubly historically accurate! :twisted:

Balin50 · Post by **Balin50** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:26 pm

Had these cast (i know the horror) to pay my guys with. 1500 of them hope to have 2000 out and 5k in a chest :twisted:

by next Estrella.

Balin
Hauptman Eber Huaer

pdrake · Post by **pdrake** » Fri May 01, 2009 8:29 pm

Jehan de Pelham wrote:Glaukos, that is very high praise indeed. I will have to think on that.

Regarding Greek high relief coins, I would LOVE to be able to do them, but they would be cast, and they would be costly because of the materials. I will have to think on this, also. You're talking like a 25mm to 30mm coin that's how thick?

John
Jehan de Pelham, ecuyer and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

i know a guy who could cast those for your. :wink:

Derian le Breton · Post by **Derian le Breton** » Fri May 01, 2009 11:40 pm

Cast coins are like plastic armour: they're better than nothing, but they sure don't look right!

-Derian.

edricus · Post by **edricus** » Sat May 02, 2009 2:21 am

I found replica coins at the mediveal market in Visby a few years ago and bought some, the next year I bought some more because I had given away a lot of them.

I use the coins as tokens to people who I find inspire me. I gave one to a friend when he became a squire so that he has the means to pay for his or his knights freedom should either ever be captured on the field.

I recently gambled with some 15 ct reenactors they used cast pewter money and bone die for the game. The coinage gave a nice feeling to the gambling.
We have used coinage to mark the seal of a contract for mercenaries. I have seen one incident with "judas money" beeing given to one mercenary from his comrades for him shifting sides.

To create a SCA coinage to be used for trade is something I dont belive in but to have coins on your person to use as tokens, for gambling and in other "in game" aspects, ransom, pennance, rewards, payment adds a lot of flavour to the "game" or "dream".

I heard a story a few years ago were, if my memory serves me correctly, the Royal Coin Cabinet of hrm Carl XVI Gustav Bernadotte got in contact with the Nordmark Seneschal to ask about some strange coins they had in their collection. It turned out to be some SCA coinage, struck in silver, from a baronial or principality reign in Sweden/ Nordmark. So you never know were the money might end up.

Derian le Breton · Post by **Derian le Breton** » Sat May 02, 2009 2:51 am

The trade coins that Ian Cnulle minted for many years here in An Tir were listed in the Unusual World Coins catalog. His $50 gold tremiss made the back cover.

-Derian.

^ · Post by ^ » Sat May 02, 2009 10:40 am

Blackoak wrote:
I really enjoyed when they used to have the Gulf Wars coins that you bought at Troll for $1 a piece, and the merchants accepted them. They could turn them back in for cash. That I thought was very cool and would like to see returned.

CillÃ©ne mac Conghalaigh wrote:The very first Estrella War I attended (I think it was â€™96 or there abouts) they had coins minted specifically for the event that you could buy at a $1 per coin rate and could use with several merchants.

The new $1 coins are really quite decent and will more then likely end up being the only $1 currency at some point in the not to distant future. I got a couple as change at an SCA event and it was nice to be able to spend money without having to pull out my wallet or go back to the car or tent to get it. Plus no reason for a merchant to have to exchange it.

The Monetization of The Hobby

The Monetization of The Hobby

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