how are your rivited maille tools made?

Armourkris · Post by **Armourkris** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:26 pm

I've seem to have lost my set pliers just in time to start on a new project. I could look for them, but i wasn't very happy with them anyways. this gives me a good excuse to make new ones, and while I'm at it I might as well make the rest of the tools i need to make my own rings instead of buying them.

so, how did you build your riveted tools? would you do anything differently?

olaf haraldson · Post by **olaf haraldson** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:32 pm

I've found that the most difficult part of acquiring riveted maille is getting it over the shoulders of the dead Saxon you're taking it from...

Paul the Small · Post by **Paul the Small** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:05 am

olaf haraldson wrote:I've found that the most difficult part of acquiring riveted maille is getting it over the shoulders of the dead Saxon you're taking it from...

Easy.

1. Tie both feet up with a long rope.
2. Throw the other end of the rope over a stout tree limb.
3. Pull the rope.

Comes right off. You may need to remove arrows, spears, swords, or anything else that may be sticking out of your dead Saxon first.

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:33 am

First, you need to find some pliers that have sufficient meat in them to be worked into what you want. I find the cheap Harbor Freight end nippers to work great.

If the nippers have brazed-in carbide teeth, use a torch to heat them until the solder melts and the teeth fall out.

Then, use a bench grinder to grind the jaw faces flat so that they close flat against each other. You may need to use a torch to heat the tong handles and bend them open farther so that the jaw faces will touch.

Then, drill a 1/16" diameter hole in either side of the jaw face. This makes the tong left-or-right handed for setting the rivets.

Then, grind a shallow pocket into the center of the jaw face using a dremel tool with small grinding bits. This is the peening pocket.

That's it!

Steve

Doug Confere · Post by **Doug Confere** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:19 pm

Steve's instructions for set pliers are great. I have an old set of his set tongs, slightly modified to set the rivets I use these days

<table><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Gw ... site"><img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_5_gQnXI7ilo/SXkCQ ... r><td>From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/dougconfere ... tr></table>

We make the divits with a centerpunch instead of dremel tool, though.

On punches:

I'm never going back to tongs or pliers for punches. Ever.

Nor am I ever going to go back to punching holes rather than piercing them.

Here's my rig, made by CLANG!

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Dc ... site"><img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_5_gQnXI7ilo/Sd41i ... PG"></a><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/3H ... site"><img src="http://lh4.ggpht.com/_5_gQnXI7ilo/Sd41j ... 9.JPG"></a>

I've made tongs according to Steve's instructions and they are a great starting point, but Mark made me a set which I felt fared much better:

[img]<a%20href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/3z ... 3.JPG"></a>[/img]

More work though, which is why Clang had to make them for me

But look into an arbor press rig. It works ten tons better than tongs, will take less modification, and not be a whole lot more expensive.

Kel Rekuta · Post by **Kel Rekuta** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:57 am

Could anyone share photos of wedge rivet setting pliers? I made a serviceable plier for round rivet setting but I can't get one working for these tiny wedges. They set the 9mm flat rings from India.

William of Stonebridge · Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:43 am

The arbor press is an great idea! I need to get one of those! Doug, did you say that you used a centerpunch to punch the holes in the rivet using the arbor press? Were you punching round holes for round rivets or slits for wedge rivets? I had a hard time seeing the detail in the picture.

Doug Confere · Post by **Doug Confere** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:33 am

Round holes for round rivets, but I will say that in most (or all?) close up images of wedge rivet heads that I have seen, they have been round rather than oblong. Those tongs were originally Steve Forth set tongs, though, and have an oblong hole for oval wedge rivet heads.

Yep, centerpunch. Don't just hit it straight down a few times, start to make the hole and then punch in all directions so you get a round divit instead of a conical one, unless you want to make conical rivet heads!

CLANG · Post by **CLANG** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:16 am

Somewhat of a clarification here-Doug doesn't use a center punch to punch holes in the rings, but we used a center punch to make the divet in the rivet-setting tongs. In the press, we use a long, tapered punch made from drill rod, which is easily made. And replaced, as it turns out...

Doug Confere · Post by **Doug Confere** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:16 am

Whoops, that's right.

And it's worth nothing that it's CLANG who uses the center punch to make the divet in the set tongs, not actually me

Sam O. · Post by **Sam O.** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:07 am

CLANG, do you have to anneal the tongs before you set the divet into the jaws?

CLANG · Post by **CLANG** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:58 pm

Eh, the short version is: Depends on how hard the jaws are to begin with. The pair I worked on for Doug were medium-hard, so we didn't have to anneal. The pair of end cutters I got from HFT were very hard, and needed to be annealed/re-heat-treated, which was just as well, I suppose, since the handles needed to be re-curved anyway after I ground the jaws flat, as was mentioned earlier.

Take a file (preferably a bit worn) and see if it will cut the jaw metal on some unobtrusive spot. If it cuts, you should be able to do the divet without softening. If the file skates off, you'll just mash the point of your center punch if you try.

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:25 pm

I find that after grinding the fuck out of them to make them flat and then heating the tong bend-point to orange heat so that I can spread the handles open a bit they are soft enough.

Steve

Armourkris · Post by **Armourkris** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:39 am

That arbor press setup looks sweet. I think i'll have to see if i can rig one of them up. I wonder if i could set it up to interchange the punch with a flattening bit so i could flatten a few hundred then come back and punch them.

Also, since it's more accurate for my project (maile and plates cuise) I'd like to use round rivets, how do set tongs for round rivits differ from wedge rivets?
I assume that i need a divot on either jaw instead of only one, but i;m really not sure.

Doug Confere · Post by **Doug Confere** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:12 pm

Nope, just a divet on one side. One side has a round rivet head, the other side is flush.

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Og ... site"><img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_5_gQnXI7ilo/SfNSw ... 8.JPG"></a>

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/-X ... site"><img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_5_gQnXI7ilo/SfNSY ... 4.JPG"></a>

sha-ul · Post by **sha-ul** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 4:37 pm

Doug Confere wrote:Nope, just a divet on one side. One side has a round rivet head, the other side is flush.

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Og ... site"><img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_5_gQnXI7ilo/SfNSw ... 8.JPG"></a>

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/-X ... site"><img src="http://lh3.ggpht.com/_5_gQnXI7ilo/SfNSY ... 4.JPG"></a>

those came out fantastic looking

sha-ul · Post by **sha-ul** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:40 pm

I should add a request for pictures of your process, especially with the arbor press

Doug Confere · Post by **Doug Confere** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:46 pm

Sha-ul,

I've been trying to make good looking riveted maille since like 2005, and only through a constant barrage of e-mails at Erik Schmid and a selfless and masochistic friend to make me tools have I been able to make good looking rings. So thank you very much, I'm glad you think they turned out well

I'll post some pics of the process tomorrow after class.

Derian le Breton · Post by **Derian le Breton** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:07 pm

Those are beautiful rings indeed.

-Derian.

Doug Confere · Post by **Doug Confere** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:16 pm

I don't want to derail this thread even more, here are pics of my process
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... 61#1365861

Armourkris · Post by **Armourkris** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:56 pm

Doug, is this the bottom of your ring smasher
http://picasaweb.google.com/dougconfere ... 8874644450

I'm assuming it is, and in that case is the recess in there just the thickness of a ring? I'm guessing that it's so you flatten the overlap and not the whole ring, right?

Doug Confere · Post by **Doug Confere** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:51 am

The piston moves up and down through the entire jig. I manage to flatten the overlap just by getting a feel for the flattener, I can smack it and flatten the overlap without flattening the rest of the ring. There may be an easier way, but this is what works for me

Mark D. Chapman · Post by **Mark D. Chapman** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:42 pm

With reproduction mail getting better and better I find it important to continue to emphasize that we are falling short in the shape of the overlap region. In each genuine mail link I have examined the overlap area is not flat on its top and bottom surfaces. This seems only to be seen in modern made mail.

The overlap should have either an ovaloid shape i.e. its top and bottom surfaces are rounded in shallow curves both from end to end and crosswise.

or
The overlap has a pent roofed shape on the rivet side with either a pent roof shape on the base side or an ovaloid surface to the base side. I would suggest modifying your final clenching pliers with wells to produce this shape. They should NOT be just a flat surface with a divot in it.

Regards,
Mark

Doug Confere · Post by **Doug Confere** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:00 am

Mark,

Look at the maille found at Churburg, it is flat. I agree with you that most maille should have rounded overlaps, though.

Mark D. Chapman · Post by **Mark D. Chapman** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:17 pm

Doug, I admit that every generalization is dangerous because you can find holes in it. Most mail does not have flat overlaps. An this is an issue in most modern reproductions. You appear to be reproducing a specific example and I applaud the accuracy.

I have the original Churburg, the more recent two volume set and the fancy closeup photography book as well as having visited the castle.
Just to establish references. (g)

You are doing a good reproduction of the mail that is in the mail aventail associated with bascinet inventory number S-13. In this aventail the overlaps are indeed flattened as you are doing yours. There is even evidence in certain links where the overlap is over flattened. I.E. has a step at the ends and is thinner than the wire.

The mail aventail from S15 is similar but seems to show more evidence of rounding.

The rest of the mail and all of the shirts I have closeups of do not have flat overlaps.

I thought it would be good to clarify the reference for everyone.

Mark

Doug Confere · Post by **Doug Confere** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:36 pm

Mark,

I'm not reproducing the Churburg maille, and I agree that my maille should have rounded overlaps. I'm just not at that point yet. Once I'm sure my piercing rig is as good as it's going to get, I'll start experimenting with tooling my set tongs to round my overlaps.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Fri May 01, 2009 2:14 am

Doug Confere wrote:The piston moves up and down through the entire jig. I manage to flatten the overlap just by getting a feel for the flattener, I can smack it and flatten the overlap without flattening the rest of the ring. There may be an easier way, but this is what works for me

Yeah, there is: bopping the link with a hammer face, and no intervening tool.

This works better if you preflatten the links, at least their ends, before doing the overlapping. The ends, now fairly flat, can't slip off each other, which is one problem the piston flattening tool is intended to solve. Then you squeeze these links down around the final-diameter mandrel. Follow up with an overlap-flattening hammer hit.

The big minus is probably that this method doesn't feature making the overlap within the link cutting stage, but afterwards.

Time involved in flattening in two stages roughly equals that of positioning a flattening tool over an individual link and then striking.

The preflattening stage can vary quite a bit with whether you avoid trying to flatten the link all the way around it or not. So far, I've been busy at flattening the entire link at least somewhat, and this takes many hammer blows for every link -- four or five. This may well be either unnecessary or undesirable in some projects. At any rate, I bias my preflattening effort to concentrate particularly on the links' ends.

The overlap-flattening, or final flattening, goes much quicker, particularly if a hammer of three to four pounds' weight is used. Lighter hammers still work, but chances are they will need at least one more blow. An overlap gets suitably flattened and somewhat additionally spread with one or at most two swats from a 3-lb hammer, and a 4-lb should almost guarantee one smack will do the whole job.

What doesn't work is to try and power the hammer down hard and fast on the overlaps: this frequently causes double-doorstop defect, where instead of spreading out flat, top and bottom, the link ends assume triangular cross sections -- nothing on one side and full thickness on the other. Can't rivet through that one. The cross section looks like two doorstop wedges stacked atop each other, their slanted faces touching.

It seems the metal needs a few hundredths of a second to spread out nice and neat, so a controlled blow with a heavy hammer head seems to be the recipe. Don't swing this hammer, either; the weight of it for these thousands of blows will massacre your wrist bones. Grasp the hammer helve right up against the head, lift and drop the hammer head like a pile driver.

Derian le Breton · Post by **Derian le Breton** » Fri May 01, 2009 3:02 am

So, why use a modern press instead of a medieval punch or piercing tool?

-Derian.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Fri May 01, 2009 11:58 am

Its linear stroke would be less likely to bust the nose off a piercing drift.

Andeerz · Post by **Andeerz** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:22 pm

A few questions:

About the clenching pliers and making the surfaces able to produce the non-flat overlap look of period pieces: should both surfaces of the pliers have simply an oblong, rounded depression cut into them? Or should one side also have a divot in addition to the rounded depression? Or should one side be left flat?