Half-swording

Kenji · Post by **Kenji** » Mon May 18, 2009 11:27 pm

Sir Angus - how very correct you are. Especially in Fiore's manuscripts there is the idea of a continuity of techniques starting with hand to hand - each of these principles flow through the entire art that Fiore shows us.

I also believe that Fiore shows us the best way to meet an opponent in armour with a sword (if you are also in harness with a sword) - which would be halfswording. Of course other techniques and the concepts which come earlier in the manuscripts are valid and even more so when you begin to mix unmatched weapons and armour types.

Without being disparaging to the skills of many of the combatants in SCA - it is so very easy to make small mistakes when half swording and for it to quickly become grappling (after all that is where Fiore's manuscript begins) and these small mistakes (or not 110% controlling the movements) can easily lead to significant injury

To me as a Japanese persona the pommel strikes are very combat realistic, tho in discussion with other fighters how many will take them as "good"? Not becuase they dont understand the validity of the blow (tho that does occur) but becuase often the will only see a gautnlet or gumby strike them in the face and not recognise the pommel strike (through no fault of their own)

I love the techniques associated with pommel and gaurd strikes and grapples ect but how far do we allow that kind of technique in the SCA?
Where is the line drawn? Do we say that a pommel, guard strike only to the face plate is "good".

My concern is two fold - rulemongering and safety
Its easy to make the weapons safe to play with but less so to make people safe

All that being said I certainly believe there is a place for such techniques and even for a set of rules that allow for a much wider set of techniques and targets (that being said the only time I have ever gone full speed without armour and with no limits is with students I have trained daily for over 2 years solid)

Rule-sets like the Tuchux use in their own domain are valid but perhaps not for everybody

peace and respect

Steve Hick · Post by **Steve Hick** » Tue May 19, 2009 7:51 am

Kenji wrote:If anyone has read Fiore manuscripts it will quickly become apparent why half swording is not legal in the SCA

Half swording was predominantly a technique used when in full armour and against an armoured opponent
Full plate armour often mean normal sword techniques are useless

Half-sword-ing leads directly into grappling which is very serious in armour (or out) and is not legal in SCA

why? cause you break people very easily!
the leverage developed with half sword techs is incredible, joints get popped, ligaments get torn asunder

Even if you avoid the grapple and go directly to the half sword thrust or pommel strike - that is a LOT of power generation ffrom both hands AND the body movement (still damned dangerous). At the least you will take a man of his feet, at worst you will remove his head from his shoulders

Thus: Half-sword = awesoem and effective combat technique designed to kill people and keep yourself alive
It just doesbt translate to the game of SCA very well since we are trying to kill, not destroy, each other

While half swording initially was developed for fighting in armor, it eventually entered into the fighting not in armor. It does not necessarily only lead into wrestling any more than striking with the full length -- all combat that was intended to come to lethal conclusion generally had as its concluding phase wrestling. The skill of wrestling is fundamental to fighting on foot, as horsemanship is for fighting on horseback. Hence the the Getty Fiore builds up from wrestling, while the Morgan (and Florius) come down from the horse and end with wrestling.

While it is difficult to do this safely in friendly combat, e.g.,the SCA, not having the option, and therefore not having the fundamentals, does lead to some styles and methods that are not representative of historical methods.

Steve Hick

Donald St. Colin · Post by **Donald St. Colin** » Tue May 19, 2009 8:20 am

This really wasn't a big deal in my group. I was new and fighting with a great sword. I grabbed the blade above the guard. I was told to put a ricasso there if I wanted to do that. I taped up the blade and put a little bump at the top, so i could find it by feel. There was no problem. It is considered haft. I wouldn't strike with the blade that close to my big cross guard anyway. So it now becomes more useful. And that was before they changed the language about grasping.

Makes for a good two weapon technique also.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Tue May 19, 2009 8:40 am

I think half-swording was for accuracy. You were trying to get that tip in just the right spot. It basically was trying to convert a clumsy longsword into a dagger. :shock:

Paul the Small · Post by **Paul the Small** » Tue May 19, 2009 9:04 am

Steven H wrote:
...The real important part is only grab a stationary blade

Cheers,
Steven

And do something with it. If you leave it there something bad will usually happen.

blackbow · Post by **blackbow** » Tue May 19, 2009 9:46 am

Domnall said it indirectly, so I'll say it directly: halfswording gives the greatsword an added dimension of versatility it lacked before. A greatsword with a pommel strike capability as well as a thrusting tip becomes a much more versatile weapon, and therefore more capable of holding its own on the SCA field, where it used to be darn near useless.

JB

Steven H · Post by **Steven H** » Tue May 19, 2009 11:38 am

Domnall-

The kind of half-swording I think you are describing is distinct from the half-swording generally being talked about here.

If I understand you right, you're talking about holding the sword on the blade just below cross, on the ricasso, above the lugs/parrying hooks and with both thumbs pointe towards the tip. This technique first shows up in illustrations in, I think, the 13th century. It's used with single handed swords presumably to aid thrusting against mail.

I've always assumed, based on their design, that Zweihanders are used the same way.

The half-swording mostly being discussed here involves grabbing the blade about half-way down it's length and with the thumbs pointed towards each other. This half-swording is primarily advantageous for wrestling at the sword, and the sword is used like a mini-poleaxe/short spear.

Cheers,
Steven

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Tue May 19, 2009 1:11 pm

And it also adds tremendous versatility to the weapon in countering the many other weapons found on the battlefield, such a spears and shielded individuals. A man with a long spear is in trouble against a guy who knows how to half-sword effectively (I've always had a pet hypothesis that this is part of why Fiore favored the short spear's manuverability over the long spear's reach).

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Tue May 19, 2009 2:47 pm

How would one design a SCA half sword that would allow a pommel strike?

Wouldn't the "quarterstaffing" rule of using both ends of the weapon come into play? Now you have a cutting-stabbing-smashing end (the point of the sword) AND a smashing-stabbing end (the pommel).

Don't get me wrong, I'm ALL for half-swording :twisted:

...but I don't want to have to do CPR on a marshal either when I show up with the long sword set up for half-swording.

With respect,

-Aaron

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Tue May 19, 2009 2:48 pm

When I did half-swording in Japan, I stunk worse than I ever have...but I liked the mechanics.

-Aaron

Mark G. · Post by **Mark G.** » Tue May 19, 2009 2:52 pm

Aaron wrote:How would one design a SCA half sword that would allow a pommel strike?

Wouldn't the "quarterstaffing" rule of using both ends of the weapon come into play? Now you have a cutting-stabbing-smashing end (the point of the sword) AND a smashing-stabbing end (the pommel).

Don't get me wrong, I'm ALL for half-swording ...but I don't want to have to do CPR on a marshal either when I show up with the long sword set up for half-swording.

With respect,

-Aaron

Generic answer: Play around with designs (outside of official practices) until you find one you like. Then present it with a written experimental proposal to your Kingdom Earl Marshal. If he/she is willing, they present to the Society Earl Marshal. If they like it, an experiment is born!

Kevin O'Shaughnessy

SirAngus · Post by **SirAngus** » Tue May 19, 2009 3:00 pm

I doubt you will be able to get a all around use longsword passed because then it will open the can of worms about double ended polearms and such... This doesnt mean that you cant make on and play "unofficially" with your friends!

Halfswording gives you another tool for your toolbox. It can give you leverage and you can brace the blade to make powerful body pushing thrusts but both are not needed for SCA. But hey, its a game... Give it a try and have fun!

BTW: when you halfsword holding the sword thumbs facing each other gives you more possibilities since it brings your elbow into play where thumbs away does not. Once again, not really useful in SCA but in outrance armoured fighting, it helps alot!

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Tue May 19, 2009 3:39 pm

SirAngus wrote:I doubt you will be able to get a all around use longsword passed because then it will open the can of worms about double ended polearms and such... This doesnt mean that you cant make on and play "unofficially" with your friends!

Halfswording gives you another tool for your toolbox. It can give you leverage and you can brace the blade to make powerful body pushing thrusts but both are not needed for SCA. But hey, its a game... Give it a try and have fun!

BTW: when you halfsword holding the sword thumbs facing each other gives you more possibilities since it brings your elbow into play where thumbs away does not. Once again, not really useful in SCA but in outrance armoured fighting, it helps alot!

There's been a good deal of discussion in another thread about the whole "quarterstaffing" issue, and we had been forgetting where half-swording would fit into that debate.

It makes another argument in favor of revisiting the question of letting us strike with both ends of our weapons.

benz72 · Post by **benz72** » Tue May 19, 2009 3:49 pm

SirAngus wrote:I doubt you will be able to get a all around use longsword passed because then it will open the can of worms about double ended polearms and such... This doesnt mean that you cant make on and play "unofficially" with your friends!

Are we really that unwilling to reexamine our own rules and assumptions?
I heard a rumor that someone was conducting a flail experiment. If it's really true (and I hope we are open enough to test 'what everybody knows to be true' and find out if it really is) then I'd assume that the double ended pole arm question is also open to examination. Even if it is not however, we already have different construction and usage regulations for greatswords and pole weapons. A modification to one does not imply a modification to the other.

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Tue May 19, 2009 3:54 pm

benz72 wrote:
SirAngus wrote:I doubt you will be able to get a all around use longsword passed because then it will open the can of worms about double ended polearms and such... This doesnt mean that you cant make on and play "unofficially" with your friends!

Are we really that unwilling to reexamine our own rules and assumptions?
I heard a rumor that someone was conducting a flail experiment. If it's really true (and I hope we are open enough to test 'what everybody knows to be true' and find out if it really is) then I'd assume that the double ended pole arm question is also open to examination. Even if it is not however, we already have different construction and usage regulations for greatswords and pole weapons. A modification to one does not imply a modification to the other.

Flail experiment isn't rumor, it's fact and has been in progress for a year (plus/minus ?). Jean Paul de Sens has commented about it extensively from the perspective of a KEM here on the Archive.

robstout · Post by **robstout** » Tue May 19, 2009 4:48 pm

I don't see doing pommel strikes with a great sword all that different than a but spike on a pole arm. That's essentially what I have on my great sword.

Robert The Stout.

Columb · Post by **Columb** » Tue May 19, 2009 7:18 pm

Aaron wrote:Wouldn't the "quarterstaffing" rule of using both ends of the weapon come into play? Now you have a cutting-stabbing-smashing end (the point of the sword) AND a smashing-stabbing end (the pommel).

The locals who do it only a thrusting tip as their "pommel", so yes, the same a butt-spike.

Donald St. Colin · Post by **Donald St. Colin** » Wed May 20, 2009 7:42 am

My guess is that, in the past, someone ruined butt spikes on swords, by doing something stupid.

Mark G. · Post by **Mark G.** » Wed May 20, 2009 7:51 am

In Northshield, I have a butt-spike (thrusting tip) on my greatsword. It works...

Facing a spear, I will sometimes grab the blade with both hands and point the butt-spike at my opponent. I use the (split rattan) quillions to help put aside thrusts and either thrust with the butt-spike or put aside the thrust, close and reverse to stab with the normal thrusting tip on the sword.

It does okay. Not great, but then I don't play rattan nearly enough anymore to get really good with new things. Too busy with steel...

Kevin O'Shaughnessy

SirAngus · Post by **SirAngus** » Wed May 20, 2009 8:33 am

Hitting people with the pommel straight on is cool and usefull against people with no protection, but if they are wearing a helmet, then bashing them with the side of the pommel works great!

I think what this boils down to is that we have bladed "deadly" areas of a weapon and non "deadly" areas of a weapon and if we allow people to hit others with the non deadly part, then how is the reciever of the blow to know what he has been hit with? How many times have you called a haft shot to your helm good because it sounds and feels just like the unpadded blade? That, I think it the problem!

Then we start getting into the hitting people with your shield....