Zweihammer Topfhelm Kit ... issues

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Fri May 29, 2009 10:21 am

Has anyone worked this kit before?

I had a friend bring one over yesterday as he was having issues with getting the pieces to fit together. The kit that was bought was the 13ga stainless kit (my gauge says 12) with the mail, punched back and preformed top.

I read and followed the instructions provided for attaching the top to the crown and it (the crown) was about 3/8in short once shaped and bolted to the top. The instructions also state that a soft faced hammer can be used to work the metal into shape where it is not fitting. Admittedly, I am not Mr. Universe, but even with a 4pound mallet, I could not get the flange on the top to move..at all. I had to use a hard faced hammer to move the metal (and holy %^&# is my arm feeling it today!)

After about 3 hours of futzing with it last night, I found absolutly no way to get the top and crown to fit together...

Am I missing something, or does this precut pattern actually not fit, or was the top just not preshaped correctly?

Anyone else encountered issues?

Pic for reference:

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Fri May 29, 2009 10:31 am

I wonder if you have experienced a packaging error, wherein the pieces shipped were not all for the same size kit ?

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Fri May 29, 2009 10:46 am

Kilkenny wrote:I wonder if you have experienced a packaging error, wherein the pieces shipped were not all for the same size kit ?

Its possible, but I would not think that 3/8in would be a size difference for circumfrence.

My thought was that the top was not pre-flanged correctly. I heard from the helm kit owner, however, that the tops are put into a press to be shaped, so I am really unsure.

white mountain armoury · Fri May 29, 2009 10:55 am

I would bet there can be some slight variation in fit.
Even though everything is laser cut the top is still shaped by hand.
If I understand the top seems a little large for the bottm.
You might try bolting it together.
Like changing a tire, dont crank down each bolt as once but instead work your way around tightening each bolt a little each time.
You may be able to pull everything together this way as you can generate some decent tork with a wrench or socket.
Once everything is where it needs to be remove a bolt and replace it with a rivit one at a time.

Donald St. Colin · Post by **Donald St. Colin** » Fri May 29, 2009 11:25 am

Is there a gap in the back when the top is put on the crown? I had this problem when I made a helm for myself and didn't tab the top down enough. :oops:

The crown had to be let out and there was a gap. I just bridged the gap with a slat of steel and rivited it down. You shouldn't have had to do it, but if thats what you need to do then do it. It's easier than trying to redish the top. The helm will just be slightly bigger. Here is a pic of my mistake covering plate. It is also a valid way of joining two pieces. You can overlap and you can bridge them.

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Fri May 29, 2009 11:44 am

white mountain armoury wrote:I would bet there can be some slight variation in fit.
Even though everything is laser cut the top is still shaped by hand.
If I understand the top seems a little large for the bottm.
You might try bolting it together.
Like changing a tire, dont crank down each bolt as once but instead work your way around tightening each bolt a little each time.
You may be able to pull everything together this way as you can generate some decent tork with a wrench or socket.
Once everything is where it needs to be remove a bolt and replace it with a rivit one at a time.

I did exactly that, thinking that exact thing... still came up short.

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Fri May 29, 2009 11:48 am

Domnall wrote:Is there a gap in the back when the top is put on the crown? I had this problem when I made a helm for myself and didn't tab the top down enough. The crown had to be let out and there was a gap. I just bridged the gap with a slat of steel and rivited it down. You shouldn't have had to do it, but if thats what you need to do then do it. It's easier than trying to redish the top. The helm will just be slightly bigger. Here is a pic of my mistake covering plate. It is also a valid way of joining two pieces. You can overlap and you can bridge them.

I would agree and would have done so, but the helm top was preshaped and was pre drilled with the holes for the decorative nasal, plus the crown gap is in the front, not the back (if the plates met right, the nasal piece would cover the gap) - I will get it fixed, I was just curious if others had encountered the same issues.

Christophe de Frisselle · Fri May 29, 2009 12:17 pm

Is the flanged edge bent over 90 degrees? As the top that is fitting into it is acually a bit of a cone segment.

Pictures might be helpful if you can post them.

I have one in mild. Once I got the top on the crown I had to hammer down the flange alittle to meet the crown. I worked out fine as I rivited it together. I'm sure that one will to.
I was told that the SS flange really need an OA torch to get it moving and that propane should be okay for flanging a mild top. I too, optioned for a preformed top. Oh, my top was slightly swisted from the forming. Sufficient force with a deadblow as I screwed it together worked that out.

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Fri May 29, 2009 12:27 pm

Christophe de Frisselle wrote:Is the flanged edge bent over 90 degrees? As the top that is fitting into it is acually a bit of a cone segment.

Pictures might be helpful if you can post them.

I have one in mild. Once I got the top on the crown I had to hammer down the flange alittle to meet the crown. I worked out fine as I rivited it together. I'm sure that one will to.
I was told that the SS flange really need an OA torch to get it moving and that propane should be okay for flanging a mild top. I too, optioned for a preformed top. Oh, my top was slightly swisted from the forming. Sufficient force with a deadblow as I screwed it together worked that out.

It is..and I will be fixing it somehow tonight. He wants it functional for the Rose Tourney tomorrow.

I will snap some pics if I have the opportunity. If I have the opportunity, I will be working on it some more next weekend, but we will see, as needed..

Christophe de Frisselle · Fri May 29, 2009 12:41 pm

Since I don't thing my previous post was clear. Maybe clear as mud.

Fit the crown into the flanged top. Bend the flange in to meet the top. That should close your gap.
I got mine a year and a half ago. He was late in shipping due to a business trip and rough shaped all the pieces. He shaped and welded the crown. I had the same sort of issue just no gap. The crown fit into the top but the flanges were out from the crown. If they had been bent in to actually meet the crown, it would be difficult if not impossible to fit the crown in to the flanged top.
So get some heat and a hefty hammer to work those flanges in to meet the crown.

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Fri May 29, 2009 1:19 pm

Christophe de Frisselle wrote:Since I don't thing my previous post was clear. Maybe clear as mud.

Fit the crown into the flanged top. Bend the flange in to meet the top. That should close your gap.
I got mine a year and a half ago. He was late in shipping due to a business trip and rough shaped all the pieces. He shaped and welded the crown. I had the same sort of issue just no gap. The crown fit into the top but the flanges were out from the crown. If they had been bent in to actually meet the crown, it would be difficult if not impossible to fit the crown in to the flanged top.
So get some heat and a hefty hammer to work those flanges in to meet the crown.

The gap is in the crown. It does not meet. There is a 3/8in gap there. It is not between the crown and top. I will snap a pic when I get home

white mountain armoury · Fri May 29, 2009 1:36 pm

Could this gap be covered up with the cross, or is it pre drilled in that area and the holes would show?

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Fri May 29, 2009 2:56 pm

white mountain armoury wrote:Could this gap be covered up with the cross, or is it pre drilled in that area and the holes would show?

The holes are predrilled and the gapping is at its worst right at the tip of the cross, where the gap would show a bit on either side of the point. The cross covers 99% of it, but that lil bit makes it look sloppily put together and I just cant do that....

white mountain armoury · Fri May 29, 2009 5:03 pm

silver duct tape man

Zweihammer · Post by **Zweihammer** » Fri May 29, 2009 6:28 pm

Greetings Kenwrec Wulfe!
I apologize if you are having fit up issues with the crown and cap. It has always been a balancing act to shape the top cap for others to put together. I had several early kits returned to me for rework as the top caps were too close to the outside diameter of the crown and made it hard to fit the crown inside. I kept changing my forming gauge until it was 1/8th to 3/16th large. This allows room to assemble with screws and then move around the crown setting the flange down tight as the bolts are replaced one at a time with rivets. Stainless is always challenging, the mild moves like butter by comparison. Here are some pictures I just uploaded to illustrate, I really need to edit them into the tutorial.

I like to go around the edge with my planishing hammer to set the round edge sharp.

Here is the ripple at the end before I set it down. It seems large, but sets down just as tight. When the cap is too tight, no amount of hammering will fit the two together.

I am in Ohio on business for the next few days and these are the only relevant pictures I have access to. If it proves too difficult, I would be open to it's return for me to rework. Again, I apologize for the difficulty.

Christophe de Frisselle · Fri May 29, 2009 7:26 pm

Kenwrec Wulfe wrote:The gap is in the crown. It does not meet. There is a 3/8in gap there. It is not between the crown and top. I will snap a pic when I get home

Okay, I think I see. You are trying to match the crown to the top at the diameter the flange is at and that leave a gap in front but the crown is flush to the top flange area. The top flange area diameter is bigger than the crown diameter. It was with mine. If it wasn't there would be problems fitting them. As Zweilhammer just said and it caused him customer issues early on.
Join the crown together til flush then fit it in the flanged top. Bend the flanges into meet the crown. The holes will line up, with a bit of fiddleing. That is how mine worked out. Once you have it all together with screws, take one screw out and rivit, then the next, and so on.
Zweihammer's pictures illustrate this fairly well.

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Fri May 29, 2009 9:16 pm

I don't recal this being an issue when I helped Talan build his. We may have been lucky or had slightly the opposite issue. I vaguely recall that we needed to tuck one end of the crown inside the other to get it inside and then open it slightly. Personally I would rather this be a tight fit and have to grind the piece down to fit rather then have a gap but that is because I have an angle-grinder and like playing with it.

If you have access to a welder and some stainless scrap you can probably plug that upper 5%, sand it smooth and make it invisible.

If the gap is small enough some heavy handed work with a cross-peen can probably stretch that area and close the gap. No need to wory about thining it as it is monserously overbuilt and covered by a heavy-gage cross and the cap flange.

Good luck! Especially with getting it done by tomorrow.

Sean

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Fri May 29, 2009 9:21 pm

The kit/helm own came over again this afternoon and we worked a bit more on the helm. He chose to go with keeping the crown flush with the top as it is, keeping the 3/8in gap and will have a professional welder fill in the gaps once the work is done.

Christophe de Frisselle · Fri May 29, 2009 9:34 pm

Do the hole in the crown still match the holes in the cross?

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Sat May 30, 2009 7:13 am

Christophe de Frisselle wrote:Do the hole in the crown still match the holes in the cross?

The holes at the bottom of the crown match, but not the ones at the top. I had to drill new ones.

Zweihammer · Post by **Zweihammer** » Sat May 30, 2009 9:46 am

Greetings Kenwrec,

I am glad you came up with a solution, I am sorry for your extra work. I have found that either using the cross centerpiece bolted in temporarily with 8-32 screws, or welding the seam (which is what I typically do) keeps the crown from spreading open at all while setting the cap flange down (while supporting it from inside). I will go back and check what I wrote originally 3 years ago and amend my tutorial.

Having put together over thirty of these, I have a sequence worked out and tools set up so that I am practically on auto pilot and I loose sight of the challenges.

I am working on two new kits and making sure they go together as expected, every time, with people of all levels of experience is of paramount importance. Again, I hope the rest went together without issue.

I found a picture on my laptop of the helm I show being assembled above, finished. These have all been from the same pattern since 2006, but I am looking at adding a round top version, and adding an option for a lower profile, shovel type muzzle.

Donngal · Post by **Donngal** » Sat May 30, 2009 11:34 am

LOL...
I was doing the same thing last night. A friend got a ss 12 gauge kit. Be fore he got it I said Id assemble it for him. He ordered it with no shaped pieces. Hand Dishing the top was not a easy task. And I have now run into issues with the top fitting. Mine are purely because I did the shaping a believe. Im gonna have to use heat to match the top pieces together.

My lesson Im not telling friends Ill assemble there kits unless they order them shaped!

Donngal