Working on Romano-Brit Armor (SCA)

[Owyn]

I think I've been suffering from multiple persona disorder for a while now, but it's been especially intense this past spring. *Love* the idea behind the Combat of the Thirty, so an intense desire to do the 14th C thing has been natural. That kit's already well into production, and I know what I'm doing there.

But I keep finding myself drifting back to around 500 CE (give or take a couple decades) in Brittania, in the last days of organized post-Roman order there. The era appeals for a wide variety of reasons - it's always been a special interest of mine in history.

Anyway, I've decided to go with the flow, and just build two kits. Both need to be "Warriors of History" quality - pass as being period perfect from ten paces or so. I am SO done having sub-par field appearance. And I'm hoping for a little advice about the earlier period one. I've done a lot of research, but there are a LOT of excellent scholars here, and I thought asking for some help was in order!

(All of this is for SCA heavy list combat.)

Helm - probably want a small ridge or early spangen. I was looking at Otto's "celtic" spangen as one option. Think that would fit the bill? Any other armorers I should be looking at? Helm selection is one key thing I have to not mess up, and really the main expense I see for this kit.

Body will be a scale vest from small Ringlord scales, already completed - I'm adding more scale to the length, actually, because the style there went down onto the legs. Already had the scales; sometime, I'd like to order more 'squamata-looking' scales from Polar Bear.

Tunic under it; I have some nice heavyweight red linen I will likely use, although I have a heavyweight cotton in a wool look-alike weave in blue with dark yellow plaid... Small shoulder cops with leather pterges.

Hidden elbows, which I already have. Lower arms covered with leather vambraces - either long metal splints side by side outside them, or splints riveted inside. The latter would just look like a leather arm band with brass studs, but the former I have better documentation for. Thoughts?

Hidden upper legs (plastic splint) and knees, pants over both. Lower leg greaves - same question as for the vambraces, really - can either do the side by side metal splints outside, or tuck splints inside and only have the rivets show. I've considered dumping knees and greaves in favor of a combined knee/greave like what Torvaldr sells in leather, or Bokalo in metal.

Open to ideas, though. Would love to hear some feedback about what I've got, and what I might consider that would be better. Thanks!

[Theodulf]

My persona is identical. It is possible to get a 100% period kit without hiding armour. I am not however at this stage yet, but all the plans are in place.
There was a type of limb armour, also worn by gladiators, called manica. it consists only of lames, facing forward or back. It was nearly always extended over the back of the hand, and sometimes the fingers, the lames could split away over the thumb, but SCA would require shaping to make this safe. This meets the requirements for hand protection and elbow, but it isn't practical as to use your hand you need to take the whole arm harness off, so what I plan to do is gauntlets with lames the same size and facing the same direction which look like they are a part of the arm harness. It was also extended all the way down the leg, even onto the foot, like a sabaton. My plan is to extend it over the knee and have greaves below. This meets the requirement for knees and makes life more pleasant regarding your thighs. However the idea involving scale and greaves which cover the knee is also really cool.
The required neck armour can be met by an aventail, mine however is a gorget hidden with a scarf necktie thingy, also period. The helm could have a faceplate as well. there is no archeological evidence of this, however it is mentioned in historical texts. There are examples of the "sports helms" with the sculptured faceplates on which an interpretive re-creation can be based. You can also have an aventail to hide the bars on a helm. It is probably the earliest persona for which you can get a totally period impression.

[Graedwyn]

Just because someone, somewhere, in another
part of the world did something, or had a particular
piece of armor does not give justification for
using that piece.
Gladitorial armor is fairly specialized. It is
doubtful that your average Romano-British
soldier would have been wearing it. The parade
helmets with the sculpted faceplates are not something
your average guy would have on the battlefield.

Hidden armor, and trying to portray what would
be typically worn by a real person, instead of reaching
for a grab-bag of disparate pieces will make for a
much more realistic portrayal.

-Graedwyn

[D. Sebastian]

Indeed.

Though there is evidence of a manica and splinted limb defences in the Later 6th Century Roman Empire http://www.amazon.com/Maurices-Strategi ... 0812217721
I've yet to find any reference of it from the 1st-5th Centuries in Britannia.

Remember that armour was worn to defeat certian threats. An armoured Persian with a bow would be a different threat than a mostly nekkid Brit-Pict. Also, the Gallo-Romans were mostly seperated from the rest of the Empire and largly independant due to the logistic and finantial issues.

If you're going for the ridge helm, and way up north, I think you'll be limited to what limb defence you would have. You could "get away with" visible splints for the forearms/shins - but I can't help with referencing it a possibility.

[Owyn]

Hey. Couple things on this.

We definitely DO have manica finds in Britain, but they were dated to the 3rd or 4th century, if I recall right. About a hundred or two hundred years before the period I am looking at, but they have been confirmed to have been fighting armor at that time. Actually the find was a rather big deal, it was the first of its kind on the island I guess (about a year ago, will dig for the link later). It is worth noting that the protection offered by manica is unclear; we have evidence some protected the hand, but whether that was universal, or an earlier period )1st/2nd centuries CE) is unknown at my last reading.

There were also rare finds of splinted greaves and vambraces all across the northern regions of the Western Empire for this period. Stephenson suggests (in "Romano-Byzantine Infantry Equipment") that the Valsgarde greaves may have been influenced by Roman infantry gear. The ones I am thinking of were made of seven metal splints, all riveted to straps side by side (sides touching or close). Not your standard "14th C splinted greave", with more leather than greave - quite the opposite.

I found a link to a reference for Anglo-Saxon greaves as well (http://tinyurl.com/m98qw9) but have not verified the reference. However, it does claim that these greaves were rare, although multiple sources suggest both metal and leather greaves were used. It seems highly likely that if the Saxons were using them, the Romano-Brits fighting them might well have also; we know that much transference of other culture (including clothing and jewelry styles) did occur - although in this case it seems more likely that the greave use flowed from Roman to Saxon, rather than the reverse (this seems common - military tech flowing from Roman to barbarian, and culture flowing from barbarian to Roman).

During the 4th-6th centuries (til the middle of the sixth or so) there was still a well organized Roman style government in Brittania. It's arguable that the last Western Roman government was actually in Brittania; things held together much better there in general than they did on the continent where migration pressures were much stronger. Two things can be drawn from this.

First, we know that regular trade continued with the continent - Gaul, and Rome, and from there to beyond - through these centuries. While that trade had periods where it was reduced due to calamity on one end or the other, it seems to have never been completely stopped during this time. That means customs, styles, and materials would have progressed (slowly) from continental armies to the islands.

Second, it's important to remember that the government of the late 5th and early 6th in Brittania saw itself as Roman. They used Roman titles for civil and military leaders; they often used Roman names. The era was one of attempting to fit the old systems into a new time (and ultimately failing, but lasting longer than most). It seems likely therefore that an attempt would have been made to retain 'modern' Roman armoring customs as much as possible. Trade still existed; industry was still largely intact in the western island; and you had a culture largely dominated by military leaders.

Armor of any kind on the island was a sign of wealth, however. Most common people arming themselves to fight would have worn a subarmalis or thoromachus (think gambeson, sometimes made of a single thick felted layer instead of layered cloth), possibly with a leather shirt over it. A shield and spear would have rounded out the ensemble, perhaps with a felt cap.

Professional soldiers of the era were likely very different, however. The Romano-Britons used cavalry extensively; organized and permanent cavalry units implies a level of centralized control of wealth that infantry does not (feeding, keeping, training horses is an expensive process). It is likely that these troops had mail or scale, possibly leg greaves, shields with iron bosses, javelins, spears, swords, helms, and perhaps forearm and shoulder protection of some sort - much like their heavy cavalry counterparts on the continent.

[Robert of Canterbury]

You want this thread. I wanna be Romano British 5-6thC.

[Owyn]

Read it. Thanks though. Yeah, there's some mixed material in that thread... For instance, there's a lot of talk about lamellar, and as far as I know there has never been a find of Roman-era lamellar in Britain. It's about as plausible as wearing the gorgets or gauntlets you see in the Eastern empire, I guess, but that's a loooong way for that stuff to travel, and no evidence of it having done so.

Maybe should have just posted there, sorry. Should we migrate the discussion?

[Diglach Mac Cein]

You should also define WHO you were and WHAT you were doing.

The 5thc warrior serving a non-Roman landowner would not have the equipment of the few "real" Roman soldiers around at that time.

Go further north or west and the influance change on armor and weapons.

While there isn't a ton of physical evidence, you CAN find anectdotal evidence, if you filter out the occasional "fantastic" nature of the stories. Elite / Heroic warriors might wear more armor as a sign of their status, as much as wealth.

.

[D. Sebastian]

Actually, I believe I have a reference to lamellar found in Brittan, but have not heard of the Manica.

Please share the details of the manica find, and I'll dig out the lamellar reference.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

I'm nearly positive that you are correct regarding the lamellar. IIRC, it was put together with "staples" as opposed to lacing.

Actually, I believe I have a reference to lamellar found in Brittan, but have not heard of the Manica.

Please share the details of the manica find, and I'll dig out the lamellar reference.

[Owyn]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1297752.stm

Not the detail I'd like, but it's a fast link and shows the jist of it. I had the date way wrong, though - 2001 find.

I'm very curious about lamellar! Looking at that other thread again, I can't imagine Magnus doing a kit without having documentation for it, but I've never heard of any, so I look forward to it.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

According to that link, the find was dated to 2nd c. AD....

About 300 years too early.

[Tascius]

Roman 'lamellar' would be stapled not laced. Plenty of Germanic/Avar armour from this time that was laced lamellar. (Even a rigid helmet made out of lamellar.)[img]http://www.fectio.org.uk/articles/Avar1.jpg[/img]
As for full body armour and face helms, late period Clibanari are believed to be armoured in this way. One of the Late period Osprey books have a line drawing of a face plate helm much like the Sutton Hoo helm that is said to come from late Roman Briton.
http://www.amazon.com/Roman-Army-Hadria ... 26&sr=1-1#

[D. Sebastian]

Owen, that IS exciting, but I would not base anything off of that until a lot more info is released, as well it looks out of period for you.

I'll get the lamellar reference when I get home.

[Mord]

Stephenson, I believe has written a book on this subject. You also might want to look in the "Journal of Roman Military Studies." I think their index is online.

Mord.

[AEiric Orvender]

I believe there was another Lamallar find in a bog that was either a piece of leg protection or lower abdomen. Roman in make, dated (I believe) at around 70-100CE but the British museum has changed their link to another find (must have moved that one out of rotation... )

[Owyn]

Oh yeah, absolutely agree about the manica... If you read back, I said it was a couple hundred years too early. I was just pointing out that it *had* been there, not that it was still in use.

I'd say that continued use of manica in the 4th is possible, but I strongly suspect that if it was still in use then, it was by the legion that went to the continent with Magnus Maximus to support his claim as emperor in the 370s-380s. If nothing else, the massive Saxon raid around 455 demolished much of the industrial infrastructure of Brittania, making the production of such pieces more problematic and less likely. Lastly, the very high value placed on (and scarcity of) a simple set of iron leg greaves implies that manica would be worth even more; probably prohibitively expensive.

Leather greaves seem to make sense; we have more Saxon notes about their use than Roman, but with the two cultures side by side and even trading at times, it falls into the realm of plausible I think. Steel or splinted...maybe, but they'd be rare. Manica I doubt.

As for lamellar... My understanding (again, from Stephenson's "Romano-Byzantine Infantry Equipment", a great resource) is that there were basically three types of scale in use. Normal scale - squamata - had scales which were rounded on the bottom, and linked only to the scales to the right and left, and to the backing of the armor. Semi-rigid scale had scales of a similar look (the "tombstone" look), but used wire/staples to affix themselves not only to the scales right and left, but also those above and below. Lastly, lamellar (which seems to have been an Eastern Roman adoption from other cultures) had elongated scales which are laced to each other. That's Stephenson's distinction; I am not certain where he drew that from. Using his definitions, I don't believe lamellar armor existed in Britain in this time frame, and in fact the surviving examples show very little evidence of its use in northern Europe in any time. The semi-rigid and squamata armors both have Western Roman use in this time though, so I believe either would be viable for re-inactment armor.

Location is vital, you're right. The northern area, up by the wall, was home to what was left of the Roman troop contingent - mostly auxiliaries, and those legionnaires who had families and refused to leave with Maximus. They seemed to still be a vital fighting force well into the 5th, as the Saxons were invited into the south as a defensive force there - implying that the north was already well enough defended. Other evidence from the era supports this, including how unsuccessful the first Saxon rebellions were in the northern area. These folks would have had access to better armor and a strong military tradition.

Likewise, the southwest tended to be wealthier, better organized, and more stable. The raid of 455 never really did as much damage there, and the people recovered rapidly. It became the nexus for the cavalry units which were employed to such great effect in keeping the Saxons penned into a few counties in the east. Here too, you had stronger trade ties, stronger remaining industry, wealthy magnates who held the power to raise the hundreds of horse required for the cavalry... Here, you likely had the ability and wealth to generate a stronger level of armor.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

My doubts regarding the use of the manica would be more along the lines of what has been said before - it was fairly specialized, and the Roman army was known for very "off the rack" kind of gear. I wouldn't be shocked to find that it was either "parade" gear or something more symbolic in nature than actual fighting gear -

While most of my research has admittedly been focused on Ireland and the Irish at that time (the exact time period, actually), I don't know if there would be a ton of difference.... And while I have found mention of body armor, helms, greaves and shields... no arm protection is mentioned.


Something to look into more.....
.

[Alec]

Owyn,

Something like this?

[Niall Mor]

I don't have the reference in front of me, but as far as I know, manicae were used for arm protection during the Dacian wars in the Northern Baltic states. The Iazyge Sarmatians who were transplanted to Britain after the wars could have brought manicae with them along with their horse armor, but it's a stretch. Also, I've heard that manicae are difficult to maneuver in for SCA combat.

For an SCA kit I would stick with what you know for sure. It's important to figure who and what you are and where you are from when doing a persona, but also how it is perceived. If an archaeologist finds a katana in Scotland, will one find change our opinions on MacSamurais?

[Tascius]

If you look at some of the illustrations from the Notitia Dignitatum you will find manicii. The original Notitia Dignitatum is dated to 400 AD and is considered current up till 420 AD.

[Theodulf]

Everyone shredded my interpretation....However it is based around some background which takes away its unfeasability. A successful soldier would have the chance to loot a fair bit of armour, and my persona does a bit of travelling, most importantly to Germany, where a lamellar find was, and around Britain, where he could have bought or looted, or even inherited manica. the faceplate I intend to make is simpler than the sculpted sports helms, much more similar to the Sutton Hoo helm. It matches the historical descriptions, there are no archeological finds it needs to match, and quite frankly it's better than bars for a faceplate. Manica over the hands is the only period hand protection available for this period, and you can't hide gauntlets. I could hide the leg armour, but the persona is a heavy cavalryman, so he'd of had more armour on the legs, and everwhere else. But that's me, for others it's different.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

That depends.

If you are an active soldier in the Roman Army at the time, chances are you were a mercenary, or a local "recruit". In this case you would have been armed and armed as you people normally would have - You did have Germanic and local Britons (and other tribes) serving under the Roman banner, but not usually armed as Roman Legionairres, IIRC.

Now as a Germanic warrior, you possibly would have traveled a lot more and had closer contact with "mainstream" Rome, but Britannia was consider the hinterlands - especially late in the Roman period (such as were are talking), actual Roman goods were becoming less common (as were Roman soldiers).

There are options for gauntlets and bar grills - see the thread on "hidden gauntlets" or "stealth gauntlets" - some great options that don't draw attention to themselves. If you plain the grill black (or have the bars blackened) at any reasonable distance, they will "vanish" from the eye - old theater trick. Really, blackend steel gauntlets might do the same!


.

[Owyn]

If you are an active soldier in the Roman Army at the time...(rest snipped)

I think that's the real question, Theo - what time are you from?

People often make the mistake of saying "Roman" and lumping together hundreds of years of change and development. It wasn't that simple; there was no "Roman" thing which stayed static. The Roman Empire was a time of massive change and upheaval, where culture spread thousands of miles to mix with other cultures. *Nothing* stayed the same for that whole period.

We've got confirmed manica finds in Britain for the 2nd century. I'd buy 3rd century as possible. But armor started changing a lot as you get into the 3rd and 4th centuries. As pointed out above, the Notitia gives us some documentation for manica in the early 5th, in Rome - but as I pointed out, less likely in Britain.

Lamellar, on the other hand, was a later period addition. Really, it was Byzantine in adoption, not Western Roman. There are almost no finds of lamellar in Western Europe at all - so going to the mainland won't help. The few that exist are dated to 900 CE or so, I think(?). Much later. Mixing manica and lamellar in the west is almost certainly NOT documentable (although you might be able to document manica and semi-rigid scale, for an earlier Empire persona).

Gauntlets are tough for early period. There's a find in Iran of a pair of Eastern empire steel gauntlets, the remains look kinda like the standard SCA 7-lame gaunts. You can grab a set of Torvaldr's leather gaunts, too - those can be "gloves". Someone posted a way to make low profile finger gaunts a while back. Leather demi gaunts in a basket is another option. Kydex gauntlets with glued on leather look close to leather gloves too. None of it's perfect, but there's options.

Edit: nice idea on the bar grill, by the way!
Edit 2: Oh, and Alec, I've seen that shot before, thanks - yes, something like, your kit is great!

[Tascius]

Theodulf your idea is sound. Eastern Roman forces used Clibanarii. Here is a description of a parade of Constantius into Rome as told by Ammianus Marcellinus in book 16 section 8.

8. After these marched a double row of heavy-armed soldiers, with shields and crested helmets, glittering with brilliant light, and clad in radiant breast-plates; and among these were scattered cavalry with cuirasses, whom the Persians call Clibanarii, protected by coverings of iron breast-plates, and girdled with belts of iron, so that you would fancy them statues polished by the hand of Praxiteles, rather than men. And the light circular plates of iron which surrounded their bodies, and covered all their limbs, were so well fitted to all their motions, that in whatever direction they had occasion to move, the joints of their iron clothing adapted themselves equally to any position.

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/ammia ... 16.htm#C10

It has been assumed for some time that face helmets in the Roman army were for Calvary sports or parade only. The masks were deemed too visually confining to be useful in battle. This is a strange assumption when you consider that the medieval knight had far more constraining helms. Furthermore the Parthians, Armenians, Sarmatians, Sassanians, Avars and Seleucid Greeks all employed these mask helms in the field. It is also worth noting that a Roman Cavalry mask was found at the massacre site of Varus's legions in the Teutoburg Forest.

It appears that the West had no need of these troopers as they were used mainly to oppose the Persian/Sassanian Dehgan cavalry. The Notitia Dignitatum mentions four units of Roman Clibanarii, four in the East and one in Africa.

Of related interest:
As for a gorget and gauntlets, Xenophon mentions them as standard calvary gear in his 'On the Art of Horsemanship' . A Roman gorget dated to the second cent. AD was found in Catalka Bulgaria. The Avars were known to use gorgets and Maurice advices that soldiers should wear "round neck pieces of the Avar type..." He also mentions iron gauntlets.
http://books.google.com/books?id=ihDmbG ... t&resnum=1

http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewto ... 6&start=20

(A sixth century gauntlet was found near Amlash Iran. http://schnucks0.free.fr/forum/viewtopi ... elet#p5185 )



I hope this helps.

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

A bit more information on the Carlisle find.

http://antiquity.ac.uk/ProjGall/Pre2003/McCarthy/mccarthy.html

[Theodulf]

Whoever it was that asked, my persona lives either side of the turn of the 6th century. There is little order left at this time and armouring technology is supposed to be declining, but the persona's supposed to have military ancestors, so the possibility is for having inherited arms and armour, and "aquiring" his own as well. He also has Saxon influences. My background story isn't yet complete, I've only been in the Society for little more than a year. Since reading this topic, I have seen and acknowledged faults in my interpretation.

Another idea for the faceplate is a maille drape to cover the bars (if you get the right maille, you can see through it). The 6th century gauntlets are awesome Tascius. Does anyone know Italian or whatever it is that they are speaking on that forum? If anyone could translate their key facts, like where they were found, that would be awesomated.

This thread was originally Owyn's, but it seems to have started revolving around what were my ideas, but Owyn, your interpretation is sound as far as I'm concerned. Where the greaves are concerned, I wouldn't top them with a cop, I'd go for full greaves which cover the knees. You could also go for hidden cops under pants, I've only fought for a year, but other fighters, namely my knight, Sir Alfar have said I'm as experienced as a five year fighter (probably only because I'm only 17 and still learn easily) and I've never been whacked on the shin.

[Sextus Maximus]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ronninscott/3523558103/

This is my kit of a late 3rd, early 4th Century Roman. The greaves may be a little out of date, but they work and look good with the kit. I am the short guy of course...

[Theodulf]

What brand /manufacturer are those scales? I asked before about where the gauntlet find was, but it was already posted as in Iran, but I meant more specifically, like what context it was in (was it in a battle site, where it had epically failed, never to be tried again, or in a shrine being worshipped for its divine godlike aura of protection and safety).

[Wolf]

while not SCA. i too have a 3rd, 4th and 5thc kit laying around.

3rd
http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt47 ... CN0985.jpg
http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt47 ... CN0978.jpg
http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt47 ... CN0973.jpg

4th
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3489/326 ... c6db_b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3330/326 ... 8f54_b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3261/326 ... 5320_b.jpg

5th
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3473/326 ... 7965_b.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/199/3263 ... 1b9c_b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3393/326 ... 6cca_b.jpg


don't have a 6thc though. working on a 8thc at the moment

[Tascius]

while not SCA. i too have a 3rd, 4th and 5thc kit laying around.

I too, (he says like everybody else does also) have a 3rd, 4th, and 5th cent. kit laying around....

What most of you don't know is Wolf is secretly a cross time commando. He keeps a time tunnel in his basement. His code name is Wolf due to the work he did during project Romulus/Remus. All of the outfits you see are his 'business attire'.

As usual all of your kits are great. I love the 3rd cent. impression. The ring belt is spot on and the baldric castings are perfect. The helm and sword have to be among the best reproductions deepeeca makes. Not to mention that the 3rd. cent. Roman era is done by almost nobody else. I hope you have another tunic to wear over that white tunic with the clavi, the blackened chainmail is going to ruin it.

[Wolf]

hahahah Tash! hehehe. now, i must kill you all the secret is out of the bag. see my other period?: http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt47 ... CN1117.jpg 3rdc just the other way

[Tascius]

Operation: March of the Elephants?

[white mountain armoury]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ronninscott/3523558103/

This is my kit of a late 3rd, early 4th Century Roman. The greaves may be a little out of date, but they work and look good with the kit. I am the short guy of course...

No one will be looking at your legs when they can look at that wonderful scale shirt. !!

[Sextus Maximus]

Thanks, that means a lot coming from you. Scales made out of 410, heat treated and then buffed out. Shirt works great as well....