I wanna play with these guys

ThorvaldR Skegglauss · Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:55 am

For those of you who think it is possible to throw excessive blows in the SCA.......

I could/would wanna try this. You only need a team of 8 or more to join in....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLCLljsi ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBdCDg41o0Q

Nissan Maxima · Post by **Nissan Maxima** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:28 am

I want.

Theoderic · Post by **Theoderic** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:48 am

The second video was quite extraordinary with a flare for being absorbed into a medieval space in time long passed.

The fighting is final destination of our line of sporting endeavors. The step beyond would be an actual fight with death in mind.

I am certain it unleashes the barbaric yalp in a way only few things can.

Tom B. · Post by **Tom B.** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:59 am

I been watching their videos since the lady posted over in the Classifieds Forum last week. There are some great videos. Generally great armour and very intense fighting. Here is another video.

Big Battle Scene

Tom

ThorvaldR Skegglauss · Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:02 am

Here is the email I received.

[quote]Dear colleagues-reenactors!

We are glad to inform you that on the basis of the project â€œBattle of the Nationsâ€

Rudolph · Post by **Rudolph** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:07 am

Definitely some cool stuff there. It's interesting to see the difference when kicking and grappling are added to the mix. Can't stop watching.

Fokke · Post by **Fokke** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:17 am

Thats awesome. In the second video right around the 1:40 mark, did anyone notice the guy being gigged just below the eye slot with a spear? Wonder what the injury rate is with these guys? This is what the SCA should aspire to be more like, I think the recruitment issues would be gone when people saw how hardcore the fighting really is. Definately would hear an end to the "off to go hit grown men with sticks again?" comments.

Ogedei · Post by **Ogedei** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:21 am

Stephen du Bois · Post by **Stephen du Bois** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:25 am

I want, I want.....and oh, hell yes!!!!!!!! (though my wife says I'm crazy)

When and where are they doing this next?

Stephen

Fokke · Post by **Fokke** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:37 am

Unfortunately, looking at the language, looks like Russia or Eastern Europe somewhere. Be fun to try and get my greatsword through airport security.

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:43 am

Far more realistic than your standard SCA fight.

These guys obviously do not have any silly engagement rules....that is for sure.

David de Clermont · Post by **David de Clermont** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:09 am

Someone set this up, I'm in. I'll need to re-think my kit, but it'd be worth it to fight with these guys. It may cost a ton to go to the Ukraine but it would be worth every minute of it.

Theoderic · Post by **Theoderic** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:19 am

They appear to have a very limited set of rules that seem to be focused upon not killing someone. It initially appeared to me that once an opponent was down that opponent was out. However, I did witness a fallen combatant attacked repeatedly while down. The man upon the ground was not attacking and the man which was continuing the assault was the same person that took him down.

Several people did require stitches or similar upon the face. The force from the pole arm weapons could easily break bones.

It looks to be UFC, the Next Gen.

raito · Post by **raito** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:31 am

Fokke wrote:Thats awesome. In the second video right around the 1:40 mark, did anyone notice the guy being gigged just below the eye slot with a spear? Wonder what the injury rate is with these guys? This is what the SCA should aspire to be more like, I think the recruitment issues would be gone when people saw how hardcore the fighting really is. Definately would hear an end to the "off to go hit grown men with sticks again?" comments.

Every time I've tried reading up on the Eastern European stuff (all of 3 times. nonetheless), I end up translating posts in Ukranian or Polish forums. And they;re always to the effect that there's too many injuries. As in hospitalization injuries.

And just speaking to what I've been able to glean, which could be wrong...

Those sorts of groups seem to have rules that you're not dead unless you're knocked down. If that's so, their techniques seem pretty ineffective overall. Smacking a guy in the helm isn't going to knock him over.

I'll bet that some jeu de la hache or medieval manual work would come in very handy.

JimC · Post by **JimC** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:35 am

Fokke wrote:Thats awesome. In the second video right around the 1:40 mark, did anyone notice the guy being gigged just below the eye slot with a spear? Wonder what the injury rate is with these guys?

We put perf steel inside the eye slots to keep out shit like arrows, spears and sword points. Not sure if these guys do.

Godric Alburne · Post by **Godric Alburne** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:59 am

One of the first things that I thought on seeing these videos is.... why the hell doesn't the SCA have videos with quality like that?????

All of the helmets seem to be closed-face, or modified to be closed. While I saw a few nasals, they were modified to have chain aventails hanging from the helm, with no exceptions.

I suspect that might be one of the rules.

Also, apparently these videos were comprised of footage from other festivals, not the Battle of the Nations that it's used as advertising for.

LOGOS · Post by **LOGOS** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:06 am

Pretty damn cool.

Trust me, you will have no luck trying anything like this in SCA even watered down so much as to be absurd.

However, if enough people are interested in doing outside the envelope, maybe it will happen. Let's discuss...

Fokke · Post by **Fokke** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:25 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uykcM1j3 ... re=related

Are those pole arms with metal heads? Watch this video and check the pole armers out those guys are flat out cranking people with their shots, I have seen the results of a flanged mace on an SCA legal helm, the result is a heavily dented and punctured helm. How are they getting away with not just heavily injuring guys but flat out killing them?
I am noting that I do not see any leg sweeps with the polearms. Everything seems to just be over heads chops or thrusts.

Godric Alburne · Post by **Godric Alburne** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:32 am

Let's see if we can figure out what the rules are from just watching the various videos.

So far, the following seem legal:

Live steel (blunted, it appears)
Kicking
Punching
Shield checking
Shield slashing
Grappling
High shots
Face thrusts

Helms cover most of the face, and no one seems to be in armor that's less than full coverage.

There are marshals/referees who bear staffs with yellow flags. In the videos of matches I've been watching, they interrupt the fights on a regular basis. There seems to be an equivalent of "Hold!" being shouted occasionally.

There appears to be no restriction on attacking from behind.

raito · Post by **raito** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:54 am

Fokke wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uykcM1j3 ... re=related

Are those pole arms with metal heads? Watch this video and check the pole armers out those guys are flat out cranking people with their shots, I have seen the results of a flanged mace on an SCA legal helm, the result is a heavily dented and punctured helm. How are they getting away with not just heavily injuring guys but flat out killing them?
I am noting that I do not see any leg sweeps with the polearms. Everything seems to just be over heads chops or thrusts.

The other thread's translation seemed to indicate that lower legs were off limits, if I remember correctly.

ThorvaldR Skegglauss · Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:58 am

I think my old ass could handle about 1 day of that and then I would need a month or more to recover.

Hot tub and sauna for hours after that....

Foxman · Post by **Foxman** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:02 am

I love the game - but that frickin scares me.

0:28 - guy tilts back his head - neck WIDE OPEN - no gorget!

0:45 - 2x eye slots 2" x 4" wide - WAY too easy for swords to get in!

1:07 - the head of the pole arm comes flying off! - look at all those spectators - and they guy he's hitting is right on the barrier!

1:17 - massive overhead swing with a pole arm at a guys back

1:20 - random hilt punch to the head

1:22 - the guy in the center I can see WAY too much of his face - I think he has a brim of a helmet and something from the nose down but everything else is WIDE open OMG! Also at 2:05 guy on right, Looks like a helm and a metal version of a turtleneck

1:32 - the frickin helm face is flying open. same guy at 1:47 - this an ongoing thing?!?!

1:36 - broken sword, I shouldnâ€™t be surprised...

2:07 - Looks like the guy has a bloody lip. If thatâ€™s the worst injury I'd be surprised.

2:28 - kick to the groin

2:32 - guy being pushed over the barrier into the crowd!

Add in numerous body checks and hits from behind.

Damn. I'd be supprised if nobody has been killed in this. I expect maiming to have happened already.

Ironic · Post by **Ironic** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:09 am

Dang, thats brutal, but looks so cool though. They should do something like that here in the US. Wouldn't that be so fun.

Tom B. · Post by **Tom B.** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:11 am

Godric Alburne wrote:Let's see if we can figure out what the rules are from just watching the various videos.

There is a software translation of the rules in the Other Thread.

Tom

jenzinas · Post by **jenzinas** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:41 am

A few years ago I met a polish guy at a WMA event who did this. He said it was pretty safe. Usually only a couple of guys got their teeth broken at an event.

Godric Alburne · Post by **Godric Alburne** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:17 pm

Enrico di Venezia wrote:
Godric Alburne wrote:Let's see if we can figure out what the rules are from just watching the various videos.
There is a software translation of the rules in the Other Thread.

Tom

So there are.

It looks like a really brutal sport. I'm not sure if I'd participate or not.

Lucian Ro · Post by **Lucian Ro** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:29 pm

I'll have to admit; I'd totally try it.
It has all the feel of a brawl thrown together with amour and weapons.
I'd be damn sure I had full face protection, though. There's a point in the first movie where someone dodges back and their chapel and bevor separate and there's a wide open area for teeth-losing goodness.
Ouch, no thank you.

Lloyd · Post by **Lloyd** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:42 pm

I love this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=7wpxsdg ... re=related

Especially when the first move is to kick your opponents shield or they dude at :56 that continually punches the guy in the sugarloaf with his fist/pommel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=LyChLjU ... re=related

These folks have wayyy too wide open occulars for what they are doing. But they have style

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:58 pm

One thing is, they sure aren't whiney bitches.
Take that as you like it, but it's a fact.

Josh W · Post by **Josh W** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:07 pm

I'd try it, but only in my full Milanese plate.

Lloyd · Post by **Lloyd** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:12 pm

For polearm fighters: http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=amv1yT7 ... re=related

Ottawa Swordplay · Post by **Ottawa Swordplay** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:17 pm

I'd love to do something that hardcore, but the risk-benefit ratio doesn't work for me in this case. A number of their rules seem to (regardless of the intent) both reduce realism and safety. The minimum required weight for their swords is a good example. Swords weren't that heavy, and requiring them to be so increases the odds of injuring someone with a sword.

I'm torn about their knock-down rules as well. Certainly, historically the best way to overcome an armoured warrior was to get him on the ground where you could then either pin him and open his armour or apply more direct force to an attack. However, either the rules or the training these guys use seems to limit the most effective type of takedown, which are also IMO safer (for both participants) than just tackling them or bludgeoning them until they collapse or lose their balance.

In some ways the biggest problem for me may just be the overall image. I spend a lot of time explaining to people that medieval swordplay was a sophisticated and elegant martial art, and not just a matter of repeatedly bludgeoning an opponent until their armour gave out. These tournaments support the myth I've tried hard to dispel. And really, the over-heavy swords are part of that too.

Mind you, these days I mostly fight one on one, and group battle changes the game in and of itself. But I also don't see a lot of tactics other than ganging up on someone if you aren't otherwise occupied.

But they certainly aren't whiney bitches, and I can respect that.

David Blackmane · Post by **David Blackmane** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:38 pm

In the second one Lloyd psted, I was thinking the swords were aluminum, until they started throwing sparks when the swords hit.

They were also getting pumped up on Dethklok. That I can respect.

JimC · Post by **JimC** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:51 pm

OttawaClassicalSwordplay wrote: In some ways the biggest problem for me may just be the overall image. I spend a lot of time explaining to people that medieval swordplay was a sophisticated and elegant martial art, and not just a matter of repeatedly bludgeoning an opponent until their armour gave out. These tournaments support the myth I've tried hard to dispel. And really, the over-heavy swords are part of that too.

I think the biggest problem here is that very very very few of us are fortunate enough to spend enough time training, especially in harness to do justice to it.

Fokke · Post by **Fokke** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:57 pm

Ottawa, not saying you are right or wrong, but do we really have a clue what an actual battle looked like? I really do not think swords were a primary weapon by this point in time anyway. Armor negates swords. More likely in my opinion would be heavy bludgeoning weapons and polearms and thrustie weapons for getting into small cracks. just a guess anyway.