assembling scale chausses

[dacovalu]

Hi,
I was wondering if anyone on the archive had any recommendations for attaching scales to their backing. The would be used in blunted steel combat (I'm based in Scotland). I'm aiming for a fit similer to the statue of St. George In Hradcany square in Prague. These are for a 1330-1350-ish knightly harness based in England/Scotland.

My main inspiration for trying this comes from the Romance of Alexander which shows a knights with fitted Scale chausses.

At the moment is to back the scales onto fitted canvas hose and either rivet or sew them in place. my scales were bought from the ring lord (small mild steel scales) and came with pre-drilled 1/4 inch holes. My concern with riveting them is that even with 2 layers of canvas and washers the rivets might still pull through or that with the size of the scales and spacing that the backing would be compromised. My concerns with sewing them in place is that they won't be secure enough.

Has anyone tried to make these?
Thank you
David

Edited for correct syntax

[mordreth]

I had steel scales sewn to a backing as one of my first armors, I had a rough time with scales detaching after a strike that slid down a row.
I'm not sure if it was my construction or an inherent problem

[Russ Mitchell]

One of the reasons I favor lacing over staples - pull-out seems less prevalent.

[bigfredb]

Hi,
I was wondering if anyone on the archive had any recommendations for attaching scales to their backing. The would be used in blunted steel combat (I'm based in Scotland). I'm aiming for a fit similer to the statue of St. George In Hradcany square in Prague. These are for a 1330-1350-ish knightly harness based in England/Scotland.

My main inspiration for trying this comes from the Romance of Alexander which shows a knights with fitted Scale chausses.

They look more like depictions of Chainmaile rather than scale in both representations, but someone more learned than me may know better.

[Ernst]

No guarantee that the method used in the Carpow find was still in use in the 14th century, but some Roman scales have a single large hole at the top. The same system could work by overstiching the cord through one large hole.

Copied and pasted from a previous post:
The Roman scale fragment from Carpow, Scotland still attached to linen twill backing, 6-holes per scale.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2341710/Carpow-Roman-Fort

The scales are laid out in rows and are fastened together with pieces of bronze wire which went
through the holes on the sides and are then bent over towards the back. Each row was then
stitched through the top holes through a tough backing cloth to a string running the length of the
row.

[Tom B.]

Hi,
I was wondering if anyone on the archive had any recommendations for attaching scales to their backing. The would be used in blunted steel combat (I'm based in Scotland). I'm aiming for a fit similer to the statue of St. George In Hradcany square in Prague. These are for a 1330-1350-ish knightly harness based in England/Scotland.

My main inspiration for trying this comes from the Romance of Alexander which shows a knights with fitted Scale chausses.

At the moment is to back the scales onto fitted canvas hose and either rivet or sew them in place. my scales were bought from the ring lord (small mild steel scales) and came with pre-drilled 1/4 inch holes. My concern with riveting them is that even with 2 layers of canvas and washers the rivets might still pull through or that with the size of the scales and spacing that the backing would be compromised. My concerns with sewing them in place is that they won't be secure enough.

Has anyone tried to make these?
Thank you
David

Edited for correct syntax

Not specifically about chauses but there have been several threads about the scale armour of St. George in Prague.
This thread in particular has some great discussion

[Buster]

They look more like depictions of Chainmaile rather than scale in both representations, but someone more learned than me may know better.

The chausses on the St. George statue definitely look like scales.
The Romance of Alexander ones are also pretty clearly scale:
-http://manuscriptminiatures.com/romance ... ey-264/74/
-http://manuscriptminiatures.com/romance ... ey-264/75/
-http://manuscriptminiatures.com/romance ... ey-264/60/

And another manuscript:
-http://manuscriptminiatures.com/douce-a ... -180/1864/

(Notice the way the scales overlap on all of these.)
I wonder if these scales may have been attached to more conventional mail chausses, like that Roman form of armor.

[James B.]

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... rhose.html

[Ernst]

Panzerhose and scale chausses present differently. Has anyone ever determined that the extant panzerhose were actually destoyed during the war?
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/romance ... ey-264/20/

[Mac]

Panzerhose and scale chausses present differently.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/romance ... ey-264/20/

I concur. (The Alexander manuscript is a wealth of information, ain't it!)

Has anyone ever determined that the extant panzerhose were actually destoyed during the war?

I have not seen or heard anything of them that postdates WWII.

Mac

[Ernst]

Panzerhose and scale chausses present differently.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/romance ... ey-264/20/

I concur. (The Alexander manuscript is a wealth of information, ain't it!)

I have to constantly remind myself that the people are only 6cm/2.25" tall on that page.

What do we make of the little dots or circles on some of the scales, rivets, bosses...?

[Mac]

Ernst,

I usually presume that the dots are supposed to represent rivets, but their placement is not always consistent with that idea. I think the artist meant for them to be seen as rivets, but that he did not carefully consider the mechanics of the thing.

I suppose they could be intended to be bosses. That would look cool, and in many cases, make better constructional sense than rivets.

Mac

[Ernst]

At the moment is to back the scales onto fitted canvas hose and either rivet or sew them in place. my scales were bought from the ring lord (small mild steel scales) and came with pre-drilled 1/4 inch holes. My concern with riveting them is that even with 2 layers of canvas and washers the rivets might still pull through or that with the size of the scales and spacing that the backing would be compromised. My concerns with sewing them in place is that they won't be secure enough.

David, I presume this is the style of scale purchased?



One problem is that there are no historical examples made like this. Placing a single rivet in the hole has a number of issues. First, it acts as a pivot, with the scale able to be swung from one side to the other, exposing the base fabric and leaving a chink in the armor. Second as you have noted, there is no redundancy, so if the rivet fails the scale is lost. Compare the example from Carpow, where the scales are linked to their neighbors with a wire "staple". If the stitching should fail, the scale is held in place by its attachment to its neighbors. The stitching is as secure as the attachment on a button, with multiple passes of thread. Additionally, the twine overlay provides some cushioning from the overlapping scale, and probably a little padding to keep the scale from fraying the thread. It's hard to see how you could get the same effect using a single hole at the top of the scale.

The Ring Lord system of linking scales with rings has no historic basis either. The Roman scales woven into mail (plumata or hamata squamataque) use 4 holes at the top of each scale, and standard 4:1 mail as a backing. There is zero evidence that this method of construction continued into the medieval period.

[dacovalu]

Hi,
Thank you to everyone who has so far commented, it is appreciated as I had got to a point were I was stuck and wasn't sure how to progress.

Those are indeed the scales I bought, I haven't found anyone selling anything closer to what would be appropriate. I'm not really in a position to make my own scales as I live in a housing estate although it would seem to be one of the options available to me. I'll need to see if I can find steel banding of the right width to reduce the labour involved in making my my own. That way I can have smaller rivet holes/sewing holes and can hopefully reduce the strain on the backing fabric.

I take it there are no surviving examples of scale armour from the medieval period? I haven't heard of any but then again this is a subject area that I haven't done as much research on.

Thanks
David

[Ernst]

There is a scale corselet at the Museo de Armería de Alava, Vitoria, Spain, which had been dated from the medieval period, but its provenence as been brought into question. More information and links available at this thread:
viewtopic.php?t=112274



You can do it with needle and thread, pallet banding, aviation snips, and a Whitney #5 junior punch. It's quiet and tool-cheap, but it's a time-consuming enterprise.

[Konstantin the Red]

Hi . . . Those are indeed the scales I bought, I haven't found anyone selling anything closer to what would be appropriate. I'm not really in a position to make my own scales as I live in a housing estate although it would seem to be one of the options available to me. I'll need to see if I can find steel banding of the right width to reduce the labour involved in making my my own. That way I can have smaller rivet holes/sewing holes and can hopefully reduce the strain on the backing fabric.

Snipping steel banding and punching small holes in same with a hand metal punch are, happily for the neighbors, low-noise activities. Can be done; you might want to lay on a nice big magnet too for cleanup around and in any interior work area, as I'm sure you'd hate to tread on any punchouts and parings littering your floor in your bare feet when all you wanted to do was raid the fridge for a midnight snack. Sheared metal edges can be pretty bloodthirsty.

[Ernst]

If you've got a lot already invested in the scales, you could modify them by cutting across at the base of the hole to give them a flat top. Since they have a medial fold, this may cause a little flattening. You could then punch 2-3 paired holes across the top.
http://www.larp.com/legioxx/squamata.html


There are some Russian or Ukrainian scales of large size where there are 6 or more holes (3 paired sets) in the upper left corner. The scale would be sewn down, and the overlapping scale would cover the stitching.

If you only have two holes and overcast the scale edge with your sewing, the scale tends to "flap". This causes fraying of the thread in a way that doesn't occur when the sewing goes over the body of the scale instead of over the edge.

[CiaranBlackrune]

Stitch each scale on to the backing twice, once on either side of the point, nice and tight. Overlap closely and they'll work OK.

[Galileo]

http://theringlord.com/cart/shopdisplay ... l+Supplies


The Ring Lord appears to have a new scale design. Looks like it still needs more holes, but it's closer.

[Len Parker]

There are examples of hussar scales with one rivet at the top http://velizariy.kiev.ua/avallon/museum ... olska.html They're only used on arms and gauntlets. It looks like they're on leather too.

[Galileo]

Looks like those are riveted through the middle of the scale, rather than the top. Interesting design.

It looks like it may be of decorative use on a helm top here also.

[Len Parker]

I think the smaller 14thc. scales would have been done the same as the larger scales on the COPs like these http://i29.tinypic.com/b98z5t.jpg Holes across the top for lacing and a rivet at the bottom.

[Ernst]

Looks like those are riveted through the middle of the scale, rather than the top. Interesting design.

It looks like it may be of decorative use on a helm top here also.

The helmet examples appear to be decorative bosses, rather than attachment rivets.