I wanna be a VIKING

[Dalloch]

I can't see all the details on my crappy monitor, so I cannot comment on everything. However, in the front row the second guy from the left is not wearing a viking helmet. It looks more like a Vendel helmet, which is Scandinavian but a couple of centuries older.

I'm not so sure you can say something is 'not Viking'. After all, the Vikings were not an ethnic designation. There are examples of richly decorated, and old, helmets around during the mid 9th century. For example, the Coppergate helmet is reckoned to be older, by a good 100 years, than the pit it was buried in. It has been interpreted as a helmet that was being repaired, then buried during the Viking activity in the are in the mid 9th century.

Given the richness of the Valsgarde/Vendel helmets, and their connection with the elite, I think its plausible that Viking leaders had helmets at least as richly decorated as those Valsgadre/Vendel examples. As you know, Viking was not a ethnic term.

On the other hand there is a bit of evidence that the most of the 'great army' had been living in northern Belgium for almost 25 years prior to coming to the Islands of Britain, so they may have looked much more 'generic' European in their appearance than has been supposed!

[Grimr Hvitulfsson Ulfhamr]

This is the problem with terms. Somebody came up with them and everybody wants to interpret them differently.

I'm talking about archaeological time periods, not etymological issues. Archaeologically there is such a thing as the Viking Age. When it started and when it ended can be debated to the kingdom come. However, it roughly started at the end of the 8th century and ended at the latter half of the 11th century.

It was preceeded by the Age of Migrations to which the Vendel Era also belongs. The Vendel Era was roughly from the mid-6th century to the end of the 8th century.

The helmet in the picture seems to be based on one of the helmets found in Sweden that date back to the Vendel period.

So, archaeologically it isn't a Viking helmet, and if you want to portray a 9th to 10th century Scandinavian warrior, it isn't an appropriate helmet.

And if you take the 10th century gjermundbu helmet and add the Vendel decorations on it, it isn't period either since the art changed a lot during those years.

Of course it can be done, I'm not saying that. It just isn't a 10th century thing anymore.

GrimR

I'm not so sure you can say something is 'not Viking'. After all, the Vikings were not an ethnic designation. There are examples of richly decorated, and old, helmets around during the mid 9th century. For example, the Coppergate helmet is reckoned to be older, by a good 100 years, than the pit it was buried in. It has been interpreted as a helmet that was being repaired, then buried during the Viking activity in the are in the mid 9th century.

Given the richness of the Valsgarde/Vendel helmets, and their connection with the elite, I think its plausible that Viking leaders had helmets at least as richly decorated as those Valsgadre/Vendel examples. As you know, Viking was not a ethnic term.

On the other hand there is a bit of evidence that the most of the 'great army' had been living in northern Belgium for almost 25 years prior to coming to the Islands of Britain, so they may have looked much more 'generic' European in their appearance than has been supposed!

[Dalloch]

Grimr, that is all well and good, but does not explain an 8th century helmet, with extensive decoration, being found in an 9th century context, in England. I agree that only using Vendal helmets for 9th century Scandinavian interpretations is probably not on. The evidence for any helmets is scarce though. I'd rather see more 'vikings' in coppergate than Vasgarde. The Gjermundbu helment is pretty much 'it' for the 10th century, it had a maile neck flap, oculars, and was found without much decoration, but that should not be taken as evidence that decorated helmets did not exist.

The main problem with helmets for the 'Viking age’ (If I must!) is that the surviving examples are too few and spread to widely to make very confident statements about them. The Vendal/Valsgarde helmets are also of limited a sample from a fairly distinct archaeological horizon, with huge gaps on either end. Given the basic similarity in the non slat Vendal prototypes to the Gjermundbu (Oculars, maile drapes, multiple sections in the 'bowl') I think its as safe as we can get. I'd rather see more 'hybrids' made that while committing the sin of not being based on a archaeological example, might come closer to the sprit of the 'transition' phase between Vendal to Gjermundbu.

On terminology, my point was that Vikings were probably, given the length of time they stayed in Ireland, Frisia, Pictavia, Northumbria and elsewhere a much more rag tag bunch, with clothing and armour styles from all over the north sea region. While this would not vary as much as those further east, there was some differences.

I was at the York Viking festival last week, and was disappointed by the 'generic regia viking' that Regia Anglorum seem to be pushing these days. Given the show was supposed to be mid 9th century, why was it ok for someone looking very Russ, but not ok for someone in more Irish fashion? That’s the problem with making the 'vikings' too Scandinavian. A native of Scandinavia, at home or just left, might be more like the normal depictions of vikings, but after ten years away, clothes, armours, shoes weapons would have been substituted for local fashions. Some trade with the old homelands would of course have taken place, but given the nature of viking activity, it would seem rather redundant to buy what you could take.

[Gunvar]

This is my first attempt at period armor and I had help cutting the plates.

From what I understand only chain mail and leather is period for Vikings, neither of which I was comfortable fighting in. So I made steel lamellar. It's period for Byzantium at that time. http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisand ... ellar.html

Since there were Norse who fought in the Varangian Guard, it's possible a Viking could get their hands on lamellar.

[Mord]

This is my first attempt at period armor and I had help cutting the plates.

From what I understand only chain mail and leather is period for Vikings, neither of which I was comfortable fighting in. So I made steel lamellar. It's period for Byzantium at that time. http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisand ... ellar.html

Since there were Norse who fought in the Varangian Guard, it's possible a Viking could get their hands on lamellar.

The only lamellar I know of was found in the Borg (the hill fort) at Birka. Other examples of lamellar have been found in some of the graves of the Avars and the Merovingian Franks--these are outside the "viking sphere of influence."

Also, I believe John Haldon wrote an article about the use of lamellar and mail by the Byzantines. The article is found in "A Companion to Medievel Arms and Armour," edited by D. Niccole.

Mord.

[Dalloch]

"They were warlike figures, clad in mail in every part of their body after the Danish manner. Some wore long coats of mail, others iron plates skilfully knitted together, and they had round, red shields protected by iron round the edge. These men, whose iron will matched their armour, drew up their ranks and made an attack on the walls at the eastern gate."

Gerald of Wales: Conquest of Ireland

I don't have a full citation it to hand, and it was my friend Lindsay that posts on here that noticed it.

'...others iron plates skilfully knitted together...' What does that sound like? Not evidence as such, but something a little more solid for 12th C Norse personas I'd say.

[Mord]

"They were warlike figures, clad in mail in every part of their body after the Danish manner. Some wore long coats of mail, others iron plates skilfully knitted together, and they had round, red shields protected by iron round the edge. These men, whose iron will matched their armour, drew up their ranks and made an attack on the walls at the eastern gate."

Gerald of Wales: Conquest of Ireland

I don't have a full citation it to hand, and it was my friend Lindsay that posts on here that noticed it.

'...others iron plates skilfully knitted together...' What does that sound like? Not evidence as such, but something a little more solid for 12th C Norse personas I'd say.

It sounds like you need to check your citation. I generally consider written sources concerning the Norse as rather dubious. Who was Gerald of Wales, when was he writing, and for whom was he writing? I'm sorry, but you need to answer these questions before you use them. My post on the subject is based upon material cultural--not literary conjecture.

Mord.

[Josh K]

Here is some information I found about that citation. Thank you Google Books.

"Thay wenten out of ha? shyppes, sum with longe swerdes, some with Iren pletes & round sheldes well I-bound about with Iren, swerdes & speres & axys ynowe, & comen well ordeynly for to assaylle the toun on the eest half."

-The English Conquest of Ireland. A.D. 1166-1185 Mainly from the 'Expugnatio Hibernica' of Giraldus Cambrensis, Giraldus, Frederick James Furnivall 1896, pg 46

Expugnatio Hibernica would have been written around 1184-1186. He was one of the king's chaplain elected to travel with Prince John at this time. Expugnation Hibernica is considered prejudice account of the conquest of Ireland but not entirely unreliable and would require careful reading.
Infomation1
Information2

[Magnus Ulfgarsson]

How late can you get with occulars as far as norse helms go? I'm trying to tighten my kit up a bit from absolutely random to somewhat appropriate.

I like occular style helms, and if I can fit one in that'd be nice.

[Rizzo]

I think there are at least two schools at this...

One will, regardless of the Germudbu helmet, recognize the void between 800-1000 and predict helmets of earlier, occular, and later, norman type, in this period. Logically you can then stretch the earlier type further into the void since time moves in that direction. Occular helmets should then be fine up to AD1000 at least.

Then otoh, it is perfectly possible, that wearing an occular would be top notch fashion in AD 650. If you wear it by AD 800, your either from the neck of the woods or the dead guy at a funeral. Mind you, that the number of guys from the neck of the woods should not be underestimated in AD800...

The Germundbu helmet does some funny things with our perception of what could be worn in scandinavia in the viking age though. It seems to put the lid on cheekplates and faceplates, both designs that might be plausible as for the same logic as occulars - earlier finds. Mind you, the Vendel 14 helmet likely didnt have an occular, but its also quite early.

The multipart ridge design gives way to the four part spangen too. All in all, very many perceptions of what a viking age helmet would look like is because of that specimen.

So, in short, not anyone would have a case against you if you wear it up to AD1000, but you will in turn not have a firm case for it.

[Greenshield]

Of course then you can look to the east. That usually tends to stir up conroversy



Nikolskoie, 1150-1250AD



http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisand ... nikolskoie

[ThorirKraki]

Its simple my persona is a 9th centery Norse raider, trader, and mercenary. Well off enough to have his own ship and field his own warriors. He decided that while he was out trading why not loot and plunder a bit and hire out his men along the way.
Place of origin Norway
Social class Landsman

Need info on outfitting my house men, men at arms, huskarls or what ever you wanna call them.

Okay not so simple but thats it, oh and I dont need I ship quite yet but I'm saving for one.

Also a good list of encampment gear would be great, I know the A frames but beyound those I'm a bit lost.

[Jehan de Pelham]

Coin. Vikings need silver. Just as it's been said that bound is the boatless man, it can also be said crappy is the coinless viking.

I am thinking I am going to have produced a dirhem of the Umayyads of al-Andalus, from the time of 'abd al-Rahman II (822-850AD). Al-Andalus was right there along the way to and from the middle east and since I have been educated that dirhems are found in lots of hoards I believe that they would be in the possession of many a viking.

John
Jehan de Pelham, ecuyer and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

[Duncan Hepburn]

Coin. Vikings need silver. Just as it's been said that bound is the boatless man, it can also be said crappy is the coinless viking.

Jehan,

If you're looking for coins to complete a kit, shoot me a PM. I've learned moneying specifically to make my kit more complete, and can arrange something for your purse.

Here's a Saxon penny based on an Edward I penny I did for our King Ulsted last year (along with the original for reference).


Currently working on a Norse raven banner penny for the current king Hrafn.

Duncan Hepburn
Moneyer
Ansteorra

[Magnus Ulfgarsson]

Curious...

Any evidence of norse shields that weren't round? I've read 'shields' 'center boss shields' and 'center boss round shields' a lot but might have missed anything to do with shields that weren't round.

[Tyr Palenske]

Kites and ovals I believe. Round was the traditional but I think many of them were oportunistic and grabbed it if it worked.

[Mord]

Search-fu is failing me, cann't seem to find Mord's list of books and I can only pull up 1 of the 4 pages on this one...........could someone repost the list please

Ah...grasshopper...go to the library at the University of Texas at Austin. Look in the DL 65s (Library of Congress call number); you will find enough to keep you busy for a while.

Also, try looking at "Nordic Archaeology Abstracts," part of which can be searched online...that should keep you busy for an even long while.

Mord.

[Dan Howard]

'...others iron plates skilfully knitted together...' What does that sound like? Not evidence as such, but something a little more solid for 12th C Norse personas I'd say.

The original latin used the phrase: "laminis ferreis arte consutis."
It could be scale, lamellar, segmented plate, or even an early coat of plates.

[Denewulf]

K, new question here... In the SCA specifically we're starting to see some really good Viking and pre-Viking kits... What I'd like to really start working on is making them stand out from each other (with focus to time period specifically). We've gone from the old Generi-Viking with the T-tunic and baggy pants to guys that have awesome kits, but that awesome kit is starting to become 'generic' in that they all seem to be the same. I realize that cultural similarities and limited archaeological finds can make it tough to really expand on the kit, but what are some things that you Germanic types do to make your kits stand apart from the next 10th century Viking? Likewise, what about you Vendel-era types?

My point with all this is that I've been putting a lot into my kit to make it right for time, place, and culture, but I don't want to get lost in the sea of those whose kits look the same or similar, just because of time, place, and culture.

[iaenmor]

Denewulf, it is going to be in the details. Really small ones. Look at the pic of Greenshield. Notice the rings on his fingers, the buckle or strap end on his belt. Those are the kind of things that will make a difference between the average kit and the outstanding one. Not really much standing out and smacking you up side the head but just enough that if you are serious about your kit, you would notice.

One of the things I have been slowly working on is a bone buckle and strap end for a belt. How many times have you seen someone wearing one. There a few examples that have been dug up from what I can find. Never saw anyone in the SCA wearing one. When you reach into your pouch can withdraw a antler/bone comb. Is it in your belongings at all. It should be. Are your clothes hand sewn or done on a machine. Leg wraps woven or cut from a bolt of cloth and stiched on the outside. If your tunic has a keyhole neck how do you close it. Small things like that will make you kit stand out. Believe me I would notice.

[Niall Mor]

Remember period footwear. The biggest thing that people forget about is their combat boots.

NOTE:*** I know this sounds hypocritical when you look at my own 1st c. BCE Gaulish kit, but I'm working on getting period shoes as we speak.

[Mord]

K, new question here... In the SCA specifically we're starting to see some really good Viking and pre-Viking kits... What I'd like to really start working on is making them stand out from each other (with focus to time period specifically). We've gone from the old Generi-Viking with the T-tunic and baggy pants to guys that have awesome kits, but that awesome kit is starting to become 'generic' in that they all seem to be the same. I realize that cultural similarities and limited archaeological finds can make it tough to really expand on the kit, but what are some things that you Germanic types do to make your kits stand apart from the next 10th century Viking? Likewise, what about you Vendel-era types?

My point with all this is that I've been putting a lot into my kit to make it right for time, place, and culture, but I don't want to get lost in the sea of those whose kits look the same or similar, just because of time, place, and culture.

Well...first, why should your "kit," well researched and explained, stand-out from another "kit" that was well researched and explained? It shouldn't, really, when you look at it.

I've found that the deeper you examine any subject, the more complicated it is. Right now, I'm wrestling with the problems of historiographic scholarship (IOW, what does the word "Germanic" denote? What is the geographical, chronological extent of the Vendel Period?). The answers are not always so simple, and yet some folks demand and simple answer, where others just don't care.

Meanwhile, of course, other questions are in the offing--for instance, what is the relation of iron production to trade and the manufacture of mail (or maille)? Finding good, reliable information about any of these subjects (iron production, trade, and making mail) can require some vary hard work--but the reasons for the work, I submit, will affect the "kits" other make.

Mord.

[Denewulf]

Why should it stand out? Because I'm an individual attempting to portray an individual who might have lived in my period and culture of interest. I'm not seeking to be better than anyone else, if that's the meaning that came across; it's more that I look around and see all these great kits being the same. Even in the details. Most of this is due to archaeological limitations (and hence reproduction limitations). I have next to no skills when it comes to craftsmanship, nor do I have the resources to invest into learning certain skills (such as casting, metal working, etc) or ready access to those who do who could teach me (though I wish I did); what I do have is a willingness to support those who do as my resources allow, which in turn helps me develop my kit, especially in the details.

For me, those details focus on the 11th century (Norwegian who went a-viking across the British Isles, with a fondness for Jorvik, and spent time in the Varangian Guard), which means that I try to incorporate artistic elements (Urnes, a little Byzantine) into things. I don't have things like an antler comb (but I do have antler, just not the skills to work it), but those small things are in the plans.

I appreciate the input so far; it's given me some food for thought.

[RecklessAgony]

Maybe im not digging deep enough but i thought i would put this question out there. I have seen "viking" tunic that have one piece, Two piece, three piece trim. I have seen many stlyle "viking" collars and trim.

Do the number of staggered trim, colar type, colors, mean anything in the ranks of Vikings.

I am asking this question because i recieved a Zheihammer valsgarde kit for my birthday on the 28th. I am thinking about trully embracing the viking persona type, but am wondering about the military structure(mindframe, Tactics). Thank you for your time.
Mountain
Greg

[Dalloch]

In brief, no. The amount of decoration is not assigned to a particular rank (military ranks as such do not exist at this time), and the richness of your clothing would indicate your richness and social standing. The more exclusive the dyes, fabrics and materials used in construction of clothing, the higher up you are, so the more likely you are to be in ‘command’ of people.

Also, as I’m sure you know Valsgarde /= Viking (though most people seem happy to go with it). Happy kiting!

[Norman]

Maybe im not digging deep enough but i thought i would put this question out there. I have seen "viking" tunic that have one piece, Two piece, three piece trim. I have seen many stlyle "viking" collars and trim.
Do the number of staggered trim, colar type, colors, mean anything in the ranks of Vikings.
I am asking this question because i recieved a Zheihammer valsgarde kit for my birthday on the 28th. I am thinking about trully embracing the viking persona type, but am wondering about the military structure(mindframe, Tactics). Thank you for your time.
Mountain
Greg

The Valsgarde and related finds are about a century earlier than what folks call "Viking" - but they are also Scandinavians and presumably the overal culture is similar.

The military structure is basicaly --
Top - the guy leading the group
The rest of the military band - essentialy a collection of equals following a higher equal (brothers in arms)
Slaves - rowers and support staff - no social standing at all

The clothing decoration would show the wealth and prestige of the individual not in relation to others but a show of his own success in raiding and trading.

Note: I believe that any reconstructions you see are in one way or another theoreticaly put together as we do not in fact have anything close to complete garments (well, maybe one or two).

[Ceadda]

Hows this for Viking? (Hiberno-Norse)

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/usarmymutt/4271121577/" title="Crimthann on guard duty by Crimthann Fid-Nemed, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2713/427 ... 65b4_b.jpg" width="559" height="1024" alt="Crimthann on guard duty"></a>

[talaananthes]

Those look like big poofy-pants . . . I don't think they wore those in Ireland, or at least I don't know of any evidence that they did.

Looks like a good Viking, though. What's the pendant?

[Ceadda]

Nope, not poofy pants at all. Leine (or undertunic) just showing in the pic. Had on simple breacae underneath.

The pendant is a Viking Ship, from some carving or broach or other. Cheap reproduction, but needed some bling.

[talaananthes]

Sounds good. For some reason, the leine looked like poofy pants in the picture. Not sure why.

[Syrfinn]

Thinking of moving my personna from romano-brit to hiberno-norse.

Most of my kit I dont think would change, other than the shield, though if I do this I will be ditching the lamellar and picking up chain again.

But I am curious what I will need to do to my helm. I actually think it would fit, looking at past examples, but curious some of your thoughts.

I also dont have the horsehair in it anymore.

Thanks

[Syrfinn]

hmm, have left this up for a little over a week, and no thoughts on my helm passing for this time period or what I would need to do to it, to make it more to the time.

Granted, its a bit germanic style spangen, but I am thinking it could pass as what a viking, though not sure I like that word, to generic would or could of wore.

[Owyn]

For some reason I can't put my finger on, it "reads" as earlier period to me... Like, great for Romano-Brit time frame. Maybe it's the cheek pieces?

Anyway, what I figure is, we know spangens were used (from art, more than anything else). we know there were peaked and rounded ones. We know they came in a variety of shapes and designs. While it's *nice* to be able to document your helm directly from an existing museum piece, I don't personally consider that essential to a good appearance. I'd call your helm plausible, I think. It's a little outside my core areas of study though (I'm more focused on Romano-Brit or the Hundred Years War), so maybe PM someone like Mord who's a viking-specific scholar?

That said, glad you're ditching the lamellar. I like lamellar too, think it looks nice and is good armor for what we do... But it is totally and completely not period for Romano-Brit (no record, artistic or otherwise, that I am aware of for anyone in that region wearing the armor, ever), and really, really dubious for Danes and Scandinavian vikings (a couple lames at a couple of sites being the only finds - zero complete "viking" lamellar shirts that I know of). Mail or scale would be appropriate for Romano-Brit, and probably just mail for the viking.

[Syrfinn]

Yeah the helm is actually based off the ostrogothic helm that was a gift to several kings, which is why it probably kind of rings that way to you. I just reveresed the brass, from being on the outside to being on the inside.

Yeah I keep looking at it, and it doesnt scream 10th century, but with it being a spangen, I think it could pass, specially if I went down closer to 9th century. Need to dig up my resources again, on when the Nordic occupation of Ireland was.

Thanks

[SyrTheo]

Yeah the helm is actually based off the ostrogothic helm that was a gift to several kings, which is why it probably kind of rings that way to you. I just reveresed the brass, from being on the outside to being on the inside.

Yeah I keep looking at it, and it doesnt scream 10th century, but with it being a spangen, I think it could pass, specially if I went down closer to 9th century. Need to dig up my resources again, on when the Nordic occupation of Ireland was.

Thanks

The Norse were in Ireland approx. same time frame as the Danelaw. 840-850 as I recall.

The helm is ok, but to shiney is all. Maybe it would work better if you just blacked the whole thing!!

Go for it, either way.
Eik