Introduction and High Medieval mail project
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Introduction and High Medieval mail project
Hello!
Greetings from Texas everyone. I was told about the armour archive by my friend Mart Shearer, who has been helping me with a mail armor project of mine. I wanted to take this time to introduce myself to everyone. This seems like a great community, I hope to be a contributing long term member.
I was also hoping that I could get some critique and insights for my High Medieval mail. I've been slowly developing my tools and techniques over the course of about three years...about two years in I was fortunate enough to get some valuable advice from Julio Funes, a very talented mail artisan from Spain.
What I'm showing here are rings made from 1.6mm mild steel wire with an 8mm inner diameter. They are of round riveted construction, with .73mm rivets. I tried to copy what appeared to be a rounded appearance of the lapped joints on the Bayeux and St. Wenceslaus pieces, which are two of the only (if not THE only) High Medieval shirts I know of. Whether or not the rings I made are typical of this period is anyone's guess, given that we have so few examples from this time.
The rings were given this shape through the use of swaging pliers which both peen the rivet and deform the lapped joint in one strike. The rivets are flush with the back side of the lapped joint. This is honestly the step that I found to be the most difficult in making this style of mail, next to piercing the rings; while I initially assumed that the swage was made artificially, such as through filing, I am now of the volition that it is created as an artifact of peening hundreds or thousands of rings. I suspect that it was later found to be a desirable quality. The rounded shape helps not only to deform the rivet, but also to crush the entire overlap together into a tight mass. The rivet head is made from the rivet as well as material that “pokes out” from the ring itself after it is pierced.
My first small patch of mail was of demi-riveted construction as was typical of the High Middle Ages. The solid rings were punched from 1.6mm sheet using a #7 Whitney punch. I found it easier to punch out the inner diameter first and then follow up with the outer diameter, using a filed out section of the punch as a guide. The guide fits a bit loosely in the first hole, resulting in solid rings that are very slightly uneven, which I feel is a bit more authentic and gives the mail a more organic look. My concern at this point is that the plate that I punched from is perfectly flat, which may not have been the case at the time.
The riveted rings shown in this patch look a bit inferior to the first ones. I realized after this patch was made that the issue stemmed from the rings being overly flattened before piercing. In order for the overlap to properly take the shape of the swaging tongs, it MUST be as thick as possible in order to have enough material to deform.
This is where the real balancing act comes in; flattening the ring just enough to have room to pierce it without overflattening, which will prevent the ring from taking the shape of the swage. The real difficulty lies in piercing an overlap that is around 2.4mm thick with a drift that is about .8mm in diameter. I have found that long, “tube-like” drifts tend to work well as opposed to highly tapered ones. I'm currently utilizing an arbor press with an attached Dremel chuck for piercing. How our ancestors were capable of such feats without modern tools never ceases to amaze me.
While I have managed to make some prototype rings and patches of mail, I have recently hit a roadblock and was hoping that the community could help with some nuggets of wisdom. As it stands, only about 1 in 3 of my mild steel rings are pierced accurately. More often than not there is so much warping of the ring during the piercing process that the drift pushes through very crooked, despite the rings being in a fully annealed state.
On a whim I decided to attempt to pierce brass rings of the same diameter wire, and was very surprised that the great majority of them pierced perfectly, obviously due to being much softer. The material was pushed “down and out” through the hole as opposed to being “pushed aside” like with the mild steel. It was at this point that I began to wonder whether or not mild steel was even a good analogue to Medieval wrought iron. I know wrought iron isn't as soft as brass, but is it perhaps soft enough to allow for consistent piercing? Given that smiths of this time would not have been working with mild steel, I suspect that they would not have hit this same roadblock.
This is what prompted me to begin experimenting with wrought iron. I recently ordered some wrought iron bars from a gentleman in Minnesota. They were used in the construction of the Globe Elevators, completed in 1887. Given the date, I strongly suspect that this is puddled wrought iron as opposed to charcoal or bloomery iron. Nonetheless, I was curious to see if it was refined enough to be drawn into wire, and if so, whether or not it would allow for more consistent piercing of rings. The results were actually quite surprising...but I think I should save them for another thread.
All in all, while I'm mostly happy with my mail so far, I do have to admit to some very glaring weaknesses. First of all, I am not copying any one historical example in particular. I feel that the 10th through 12th centuries are a very difficult era to try and work from given the tiny amount of examples we have to work with. This is simply the best approximation I could come up with in my attempts to make something that would hopefully not be out of place during this period. Secondly, I'm obviously not using period materials. Oddly enough, it was the process itself which taught me WHY period materials are often required for the production of mail. Last of all, I'm using certain tools that would not have been available to Medieval smiths. I hope to make a switch to more accurate methods in the future.
Well folks, that's all I got. If anyone could kindly gift me with both insights and critique I would be very grateful. My hope is to someday make a 12th Century hauberk with incorporated mittons and coif out of period materials. Additionally, if anyone wants to learn more about my process for making mail, I would be more than happy to help. What I currently know right now is the culmination of countless hands and minds, and I hope to give back to the community.
A very special thanks goes out to my friend and teacher Julio Funes for freely sharing his knowledge with me, Pekka Pasanen for his insights and kind words, Mart Shearer for his knowledge and patience, Shawn Sebok for his undying support, Petr Bohdan for his awesome blog, and Erik D. Schmid, whose diligence and research made this all possible.
Greetings from Texas everyone. I was told about the armour archive by my friend Mart Shearer, who has been helping me with a mail armor project of mine. I wanted to take this time to introduce myself to everyone. This seems like a great community, I hope to be a contributing long term member.
I was also hoping that I could get some critique and insights for my High Medieval mail. I've been slowly developing my tools and techniques over the course of about three years...about two years in I was fortunate enough to get some valuable advice from Julio Funes, a very talented mail artisan from Spain.
What I'm showing here are rings made from 1.6mm mild steel wire with an 8mm inner diameter. They are of round riveted construction, with .73mm rivets. I tried to copy what appeared to be a rounded appearance of the lapped joints on the Bayeux and St. Wenceslaus pieces, which are two of the only (if not THE only) High Medieval shirts I know of. Whether or not the rings I made are typical of this period is anyone's guess, given that we have so few examples from this time.
The rings were given this shape through the use of swaging pliers which both peen the rivet and deform the lapped joint in one strike. The rivets are flush with the back side of the lapped joint. This is honestly the step that I found to be the most difficult in making this style of mail, next to piercing the rings; while I initially assumed that the swage was made artificially, such as through filing, I am now of the volition that it is created as an artifact of peening hundreds or thousands of rings. I suspect that it was later found to be a desirable quality. The rounded shape helps not only to deform the rivet, but also to crush the entire overlap together into a tight mass. The rivet head is made from the rivet as well as material that “pokes out” from the ring itself after it is pierced.
My first small patch of mail was of demi-riveted construction as was typical of the High Middle Ages. The solid rings were punched from 1.6mm sheet using a #7 Whitney punch. I found it easier to punch out the inner diameter first and then follow up with the outer diameter, using a filed out section of the punch as a guide. The guide fits a bit loosely in the first hole, resulting in solid rings that are very slightly uneven, which I feel is a bit more authentic and gives the mail a more organic look. My concern at this point is that the plate that I punched from is perfectly flat, which may not have been the case at the time.
The riveted rings shown in this patch look a bit inferior to the first ones. I realized after this patch was made that the issue stemmed from the rings being overly flattened before piercing. In order for the overlap to properly take the shape of the swaging tongs, it MUST be as thick as possible in order to have enough material to deform.
This is where the real balancing act comes in; flattening the ring just enough to have room to pierce it without overflattening, which will prevent the ring from taking the shape of the swage. The real difficulty lies in piercing an overlap that is around 2.4mm thick with a drift that is about .8mm in diameter. I have found that long, “tube-like” drifts tend to work well as opposed to highly tapered ones. I'm currently utilizing an arbor press with an attached Dremel chuck for piercing. How our ancestors were capable of such feats without modern tools never ceases to amaze me.
While I have managed to make some prototype rings and patches of mail, I have recently hit a roadblock and was hoping that the community could help with some nuggets of wisdom. As it stands, only about 1 in 3 of my mild steel rings are pierced accurately. More often than not there is so much warping of the ring during the piercing process that the drift pushes through very crooked, despite the rings being in a fully annealed state.
On a whim I decided to attempt to pierce brass rings of the same diameter wire, and was very surprised that the great majority of them pierced perfectly, obviously due to being much softer. The material was pushed “down and out” through the hole as opposed to being “pushed aside” like with the mild steel. It was at this point that I began to wonder whether or not mild steel was even a good analogue to Medieval wrought iron. I know wrought iron isn't as soft as brass, but is it perhaps soft enough to allow for consistent piercing? Given that smiths of this time would not have been working with mild steel, I suspect that they would not have hit this same roadblock.
This is what prompted me to begin experimenting with wrought iron. I recently ordered some wrought iron bars from a gentleman in Minnesota. They were used in the construction of the Globe Elevators, completed in 1887. Given the date, I strongly suspect that this is puddled wrought iron as opposed to charcoal or bloomery iron. Nonetheless, I was curious to see if it was refined enough to be drawn into wire, and if so, whether or not it would allow for more consistent piercing of rings. The results were actually quite surprising...but I think I should save them for another thread.
All in all, while I'm mostly happy with my mail so far, I do have to admit to some very glaring weaknesses. First of all, I am not copying any one historical example in particular. I feel that the 10th through 12th centuries are a very difficult era to try and work from given the tiny amount of examples we have to work with. This is simply the best approximation I could come up with in my attempts to make something that would hopefully not be out of place during this period. Secondly, I'm obviously not using period materials. Oddly enough, it was the process itself which taught me WHY period materials are often required for the production of mail. Last of all, I'm using certain tools that would not have been available to Medieval smiths. I hope to make a switch to more accurate methods in the future.
Well folks, that's all I got. If anyone could kindly gift me with both insights and critique I would be very grateful. My hope is to someday make a 12th Century hauberk with incorporated mittons and coif out of period materials. Additionally, if anyone wants to learn more about my process for making mail, I would be more than happy to help. What I currently know right now is the culmination of countless hands and minds, and I hope to give back to the community.
A very special thanks goes out to my friend and teacher Julio Funes for freely sharing his knowledge with me, Pekka Pasanen for his insights and kind words, Mart Shearer for his knowledge and patience, Shawn Sebok for his undying support, Petr Bohdan for his awesome blog, and Erik D. Schmid, whose diligence and research made this all possible.
Last edited by J. Salazar on Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
Excellent, looking good! I'm very interested in your experiments with the wrought iron as I have some of the same stuff.
Jason
Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
Don't forget the article by, I think, the proprietor of Manning Imperial on the weave of hauberks in the high middle ages.
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Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
Thanks so much. I've already done some successful wire drawing on a 4 or 5 inch piece...I managed to take it down to 1.6mm with only one break (I wasn't annealing enough.) If time allows this weekend I'm going to do the same thing with the two-foot bar; hammer it out into sheet, cut strips and begin drawing. I'll let you know about the results!Excellent, looking good! I'm very interested in your experiments with the wrought iron as I have some of the same stuff.
I just found it, thanks! Initially I was thinking of using the tailoring from the Wallace shirt, glad I have this to work with now. Some of the pictures seem to be missing from the article though...Don't forget the article by, I think, the proprietor of Manning Imperial on the weave of hauberks in the high middle ages.
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Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
I can't offer helpful technical comments. I tend to let other people make the mail.
But, thanks for the effort. Those rings have the right look and feel for "real" mail. Most of the riveted stuff really doesn't have the same feel.
Keep up the work.
Wade
But, thanks for the effort. Those rings have the right look and feel for "real" mail. Most of the riveted stuff really doesn't have the same feel.
Keep up the work.
Wade
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Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
First of all. kudos, sir!!
Your maille looks great.
Thing is that they also had "steel" hauberks, as mentioned in some inventories, so at least they had something similar to our mild steel, if not harder.
Your maille looks great.
Thing is that they also had "steel" hauberks, as mentioned in some inventories, so at least they had something similar to our mild steel, if not harder.
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Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
Bloomery iron tends to be softer and more ductile than mild steel. I haven't worked with it but assume that it would be easier to flatten and pierce (so long as it is annealed).J. Salazar wrote:While I have managed to make some prototype rings and patches of mail, I have recently hit a roadblock and was hoping that the community could help with some nuggets of wisdom. As it stands, only about 1 in 3 of my mild steel rings are pierced accurately. More often than not there is so much warping of the ring during the piercing process that the drift pushes through very crooked, despite the rings being in a fully annealed state.
Most so-called "wrought iron" on the market is actually puddled iron and isn't suitable for making armour. I tend to use the term "bloomery iron" to distinguish real wrought iron from puddled iron. Mail requires iron that is very highly refined; otherwise the slag inclusions prevent it from being pulled through a drawplate and the links can delaminate when being pierced with a drift.This is what prompted me to begin experimenting with wrought iron. I recently ordered some wrought iron bars from a gentleman in Minnesota. They were used in the construction of the Globe Elevators, completed in 1887. Given the date, I strongly suspect that this is puddled wrought iron as opposed to charcoal or bloomery iron. Nonetheless, I was curious to see if it was refined enough to be drawn into wire, and if so, whether or not it would allow for more consistent piercing of rings.
Great job BTW. We need more proper mail and less of the rubbish that is coming out of India.
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Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
Thanks for the kind words, Wade and Gustovic.
It was so bad that I only managed to make two complete rings. While I plan to experiment with drawing larger sections in the near future, I'm pretty sure it is not fit for making rings. Luckily, I recently got in contact with a gentleman from the Rockbridge bloomery who is willing to sell me some bloomery iron. I'll have to work it into wire myself but I'm curious to see how it pierces.
Much appreciated Mr. Howard!
I've heard of steel mail, but I wonder if it was in reference to wedge riveted mail from later periods? I think the piercing process for wedge rivets may have allowed for harder materials to be used. Either way I'd love to see some examples.Thing is that they also had "steel" hauberks, as mentioned in some inventories, so at least they had something similar to our mild steel, if not harder.
The delamination you are describing is exactly what happened to some of my rings, right as I clipped them off the coil...Most so-called "wrought iron" on the market is actually puddled iron and isn't suitable for making armour. I tend to use the term "bloomery iron" to distinguish real wrought iron from puddled iron. Mail requires iron that is very highly refined; otherwise the slag inclusions prevent it from being pulled through a drawplate and the links can delaminate when being pierced with a drift.
It was so bad that I only managed to make two complete rings. While I plan to experiment with drawing larger sections in the near future, I'm pretty sure it is not fit for making rings. Luckily, I recently got in contact with a gentleman from the Rockbridge bloomery who is willing to sell me some bloomery iron. I'll have to work it into wire myself but I'm curious to see how it pierces.
Much appreciated Mr. Howard!
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Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
Welcome and well come!
I wonder if a sharper piercing drift might help with that deformation you were getting?
Your setting pliers actually seem quite reasonably accurate. Period art shows use of something long-rein, and often a small hammer too, which we suspect was used on the pliers to completely upset that tiny rivet.
We suspect that compound leverage (a setting-tongs built from 350-400mm size boltcutters) and about that length of handle might get it done without rapping the thing with a mallet.
I wonder if a sharper piercing drift might help with that deformation you were getting?
Your setting pliers actually seem quite reasonably accurate. Period art shows use of something long-rein, and often a small hammer too, which we suspect was used on the pliers to completely upset that tiny rivet.
We suspect that compound leverage (a setting-tongs built from 350-400mm size boltcutters) and about that length of handle might get it done without rapping the thing with a mallet.
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Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
Remember that wrought iron comes in MANY quality levels the difference between triply refined and muck bar is almost indescribable.
I thought I heard that the Globe stuff was a bit high in phosphorus which would make it more cold short. But better for some things---I remember a fellow hunting high phosphorus wrought iron to make baroque musical instrument strings...and of course Pleiner mentions in "The Celtic Sword" using higher phosphorous wrought iron for edges of the early ferrous swords he examined.
I thought I heard that the Globe stuff was a bit high in phosphorus which would make it more cold short. But better for some things---I remember a fellow hunting high phosphorus wrought iron to make baroque musical instrument strings...and of course Pleiner mentions in "The Celtic Sword" using higher phosphorous wrought iron for edges of the early ferrous swords he examined.
Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
The 13th century Tofta coif uses punched rings with high phosphorus content. The riveted rings are wrought iron, but the rivets also have high p-content.
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Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
Sharper drift, huh? I'll give it a try. I tend to break drifts pretty often as it is but it may just be worth trying. Thanks for the welcome.Konstantin the Red wrote:Welcome and well come!
I wonder if a sharper piercing drift might help with that deformation you were getting?
Your setting pliers actually seem quite reasonably accurate. Period art shows use of something long-rein, and often a small hammer too, which we suspect was used on the pliers to completely upset that tiny rivet.
We suspect that compound leverage (a setting-tongs built from 350-400mm size boltcutters) and about that length of handle might get it done without rapping the thing with a mallet.
I only recently began using these pliers because they had a flat section on the top and bottom that could be rested on the anvil. The old needlenose pliers I was using previously had a rounded top that did not allow for easy peening. I'm curious to learn more about pliers that utilize pressure alone.
Do you have any links to period art showing the pliers?
Last edited by J. Salazar on Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
There is a collection of sources for mail in England in Randall Story's PhD thesis. John Battista della Porta descibes carburizing mail by heating it with carbon but in the sixteenth century.J. Salazar wrote:I've heard of steel mail, but I wonder if it was in reference to wedge riveted mail from later periods? I think the piercing process for wedge rivets may have allowed for harder materials to be used. Either way I'd love to see some examples.Thing is that they also had "steel" hauberks, as mentioned in some inventories, so at least they had something similar to our mild steel, if not harder.
Good luck with your experiments. Making mail is a lot of work, especially if you want to experiment with bloomery iron.
DIS MANIBUS GUILLELMI GENTIS MCLEANUM FAMILIARITER GALLERON DICTI
VIR OMNIBUS ARTIBUS PERITUS
Check out Age of Datini: European Material Culture 1360-1410
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Check out Age of Datini: European Material Culture 1360-1410
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Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
Thanks so much, Sean. Every time I think I've discovered everything there is to find online I find that there is always more.
I had heard of Della Porta from an excerpt in "The Knight and the Blast Furnace" but I'm currently saving up to afford a copy.
I had heard of Della Porta from an excerpt in "The Knight and the Blast Furnace" but I'm currently saving up to afford a copy.
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Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
Have you checked in Sources for the History of the Science of Steel, Cyril Stanley Smith ? abebooks.com has a copy for US$5 (and that includes shipping)
Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
1. That looks phenomenal,
and
2. It might be the Martin Burgess article, but there's a thing from the 50's or 60's that talks about mail ring metallurgy. All I remember is that there were slag inclusions in the wire due to the smelting process. I read this online and it's probably on Erik D. Schmidt's webzone somewhere.
and
2. It might be the Martin Burgess article, but there's a thing from the 50's or 60's that talks about mail ring metallurgy. All I remember is that there were slag inclusions in the wire due to the smelting process. I read this online and it's probably on Erik D. Schmidt's webzone somewhere.
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Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
As good as ordered. Thanks!Have you checked in Sources for the History of the Science of Steel, Cyril Stanley Smith ? abebooks.com has a copy for US$5 (and that includes shipping)
I actually had great success with this! Blunter tips tend to just "smash" through and deform the ring. A much sharper taper goes through a lot more gently. Thanks Konstantin, you saved me a huge headache.I wonder if a sharper piercing drift might help with that deformation you were getting?
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Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
J. Salazar, would you be willing to post some pictures of your piercing drift set up? Especially if you've worked a way that is going better for you. I have a lot of interest in this specifically and hope to start doing my own more period accurate maille in the next few years.
My goal is to use mild steel. I'm not particularly interested in using bloomery iron, but I do want a closer to authentic look and feel, and working out the piercing and peening is the sticking point for me. Everything you're sharing here will save me months of my own trial and error.
Thank you!
Michael
My goal is to use mild steel. I'm not particularly interested in using bloomery iron, but I do want a closer to authentic look and feel, and working out the piercing and peening is the sticking point for me. Everything you're sharing here will save me months of my own trial and error.
Thank you!
Michael
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Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
Absolutely, Michael. I'm about to head out to work, but when I get back I'd be more than happy to post some more images.
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Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
I look forward to it! I've been doing butted maille for about 15 years now, making high end jewelry for weddings and special events, as well as costumes. I just started getting into armor recently, and as I began looking around for high quality work, I couldn't find anything that looked remotely like historical pieces. So I'm excited to collaborate with you as I get into position to begin pursuing riveted maille art, as that's clearly what this is.
It wasn't even really an option for me until recently. I just started blacksmithing, so I suddenly have the capability (if not the talent, yet) to modify tools for riveted maille, and play around with and test different variables in those tools. It's an exciting world and I have an end goal in mind, which I hope to achieve in the next 5-10 years.
It wasn't even really an option for me until recently. I just started blacksmithing, so I suddenly have the capability (if not the talent, yet) to modify tools for riveted maille, and play around with and test different variables in those tools. It's an exciting world and I have an end goal in mind, which I hope to achieve in the next 5-10 years.
Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
J.S.
Your work looks nice, and you have a good attitude! We all look forward to seeing more.
Mac
Your work looks nice, and you have a good attitude! We all look forward to seeing more.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
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The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
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Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
Hi folks,
Sorry about the wait...I have a picture of the arbor press to post.
And thank you Robert, coming from you that means worlds. Your work is nothing short of masterful.
Sorry about the wait...I have a picture of the arbor press to post.
And thank you Robert, coming from you that means worlds. Your work is nothing short of masterful.
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Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
There's probably a lot more to this and I have the terrible habit of saving armour and armour tool pictures with little context but someone set up a mail ring drifting jig on an arbor press. There's a short length of tubing the ring slides over, and a little notch to where you can line up your rings (at least that's what I think is happening). Again, don't know who originally posted these or when, but it looks pretty straightforward:
http://imgur.com/a/nwkv4
http://imgur.com/a/nwkv4
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Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
Genius! I was just thinking of ordering a tap and die to hold the drift in place! My current setup does not work well due to bending of the piece which holds the chuck. Inserting the drift directly into the bar is something I've toyed with, but I had never worked out a way hold the drift.
If you look carefully, you'll notice that he's not actually using the tubing itself to pierce the rings; there are actually a series of holes in the piece of metal.
Theo, you're my #1. I'm ordering that tap tonight.
I hope to one day thank the brilliant individual who came up with this.
If you look carefully, you'll notice that he's not actually using the tubing itself to pierce the rings; there are actually a series of holes in the piece of metal.
Theo, you're my #1. I'm ordering that tap tonight.
I hope to one day thank the brilliant individual who came up with this.
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Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
J.S.,
I was thinking about your punch this morning.
Have you tried using one where the business end is more of an ellipse in cross section? The guys who do wedge-rivets use them all the time. Yours would have to segue into a circular section, but that's not a problem. I think the more "chisel like" nature of a "cat's tongue" punch would make it enter the rings with less effort than a round punch. This may be even more important with wrought iron, as it would be less inclined to violate the grain.
Mac
I was thinking about your punch this morning.
Have you tried using one where the business end is more of an ellipse in cross section? The guys who do wedge-rivets use them all the time. Yours would have to segue into a circular section, but that's not a problem. I think the more "chisel like" nature of a "cat's tongue" punch would make it enter the rings with less effort than a round punch. This may be even more important with wrought iron, as it would be less inclined to violate the grain.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
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The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://www.billyandcharlie.com
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Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
Most of the photos I took at Wade's were of empty holes. The cross section for the drift used with wedge rivets has a section similar to a wood chisel's. Determining the shape of the drift used in conjunction with round rivets is more difficult to determine. The Tofta coif ring sectioning doesn't seem to show much of a gap around the rivet.
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Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
Here are some of the closeup images of rings that Ernst was talking about:
http://www.allenantiques.com/M-2.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/M-4.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/M-15.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/M-16.html
Not as close, but interesting:
http://www.allenantiques.com/M-9.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/M-14.html
Wade
http://www.allenantiques.com/M-2.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/M-4.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/M-15.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/M-16.html
Not as close, but interesting:
http://www.allenantiques.com/M-9.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/M-14.html
Wade
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Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
Very, very interesting...I've never seen round sectioned rings with wedge rivets.
The few round rivets we've seen are interesting in that they don't look perfectly round; they often take the shape of an airgun pellet. However, I think that while the rivet initially starts out as a straight section of wire, it is later formed into this shape by the peening process. The section of the rivet at the back of the ring is flattened out while the section at the front "mushrooms" out.
I will experiment with different shapes to the tip of the drift, though I think it is safe to say the the back of the drift needs to have a round as opposed to ovoid hole.
The few round rivets we've seen are interesting in that they don't look perfectly round; they often take the shape of an airgun pellet. However, I think that while the rivet initially starts out as a straight section of wire, it is later formed into this shape by the peening process. The section of the rivet at the back of the ring is flattened out while the section at the front "mushrooms" out.
I will experiment with different shapes to the tip of the drift, though I think it is safe to say the the back of the drift needs to have a round as opposed to ovoid hole.
Alea iacta est.
Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
I forgot to add the Tofta image. It's seriously downsized. Here's a fine example of round rivet, demi-riveted mail from the mid-13th century. There just isn't any "extra hole" around the rivet to suggest an oblong drift shape.
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Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
That's what I'm saying, the rivet head was likely formed by the peening tongs.
It's examples like the Tofta coif that remind us that there are always outliers!
It's examples like the Tofta coif that remind us that there are always outliers!
Alea iacta est.
Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
Though it's 17th century Turkish rather than European, MET 36.25.33 shows evidence of a faceted (hexagonal) drift with round rivets. You could sharpen up an Allen wrench. It's important to remember there are multiple methods and tools being used to accomplish the same goal by different makers in different locations and times.
http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the ... arch/32094
http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the ... arch/32094
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Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
I think that Mark at Clang Armoury is responsible for the arbor press mail tools
viewtopic.php?t=97269
viewtopic.php?t=97269
Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
Have you tried a hand drift as opposed to the arbor press? Mark Schmid I think does it that way. And with the arbor press setup, are you pressing the drift through the ring slowly, or do you press it through rapidly? Have you tried using a hammer hit the press to help drive the drift through quick? I wonder if that might help. I have made only a very few rings successfully, but the ones that looked the best to me (though for all I know they might be crap anyway) were done with a hand drift in my case, and I think it had to do with the fact that the drift was pushed through rather quickly, slicing the metal before displacing some of it outwards through the other end. I feel like if the drift goes too slow, it doesn't get the "oomph" it needs to puncture and instead ends up bending the metal around it. That said, I haven't attempted maille in a few years, with a good part of that reason being the difficulty of using a hand drift and constantly breaking my drifts...
Any thoughts?
Any thoughts?
Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
Oh! And pretty pretty please could you take some more detailed pictures of your swaging pliers? I was never able to quiiiiite get that watershed and where the rivet pokes out to look quite how I wanted it to...
Re: Introduction and High Medieval mail project
Some evidence for a hand-held drift and need for a small hammer exists. The hammer might serve multiple functions, though.
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